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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Sorry to rehash

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
poet wrote:
Quote:
This is reliy bothering me, if we would only get rid of these rediculous theories(theology/doctrines) we could see God as we should and the atheists would be able to reconcile the God of the Bible with what THEY think a good God would do.

Is God going to become a God that other people think they need for them to believe in?

Huh?

please refraize.
Quote:
Wouldnt that be making a God of thier own design?
Isnt this called Idolatry?
Paganism?
Fornication?

No, it would be preseanting who God realy is.
God does not do anything contrary to reality, He is the one who defines it.
If something that doies not make any sence, why would you hold to it?

Quote:
God is not a humanist. He is Soverign, and Chooses who he chooses, reject who he rejects,

I've asked this question to another, but he seems to be afraide to answer it:
Do you think that it is God who rejects man instead of man rejecting GOD?

That is totaly contraty to why people are condemd.
It would not be my fault for being in hell if God rejected me.
It would be my fault for being in hell if I rejected HIM.
In other words, God does not reject man for salvation.
However, in choosing the jews, God rejected the rest of humaniy for the purpose of liniage of HIS Seed.

Quote:
If you hear his call dont harden your heart against the spirit, or you will be rejected and he will harden your heart, and when that happens there will be no more room for repentance.

However, what about those who are creasted for the sole purpos eof being destroyed in hell(non-elect)
The did nothing to be rejected by God. They didn't harden their heart, God did.

 2008/1/12 15:06Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
ChrisJD wrote:
Hi Logic, I hope you are well.

Logic, I saw this,
Quote:
"That is only because God made the very nature of man to be sin by the law of "Federal Headship of Adam" which HE Himself instituted, this causes the very nature of man to be sin, hence the "sin nature".

I'm not sure this is the case myself. Maybe this is something we could look at?

I would be glad to look at this with any one.

Also other things that lead to the conclusions which bad theology/doctrines come to that I brought up in my first post.

 2008/1/12 15:09Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Sorry for not replying, but I see that you do not agree to the interp of some of Scripturs that would lead to these conclusions that I made in my first post.

I see that you agrre to reality that the Atonement is for all mankind and that GOD [b]is[/b] all loving and infinite in grace.

You must have a diferent understanding of election that does not make God creating some for the sole purpose of being desroyed in hell as others do.

I like what you said here:

Quote:
The whole idea of man choosing whether to accept or reject God and so, ultimately, go to hell and pay for their sins in eternal separation from God, does not put God out of complete control. He doesn't choose who goes to hell and who goes to heaven, that is man's decision. But God is all-knowing, and He knows who is going to choose Him and who isn't.
God does not create people specifically for the purpose of going to hell.



You must agree that the "Federal Headship of Adam" is a bogus doctrine that puts the guilt on God for mankind being sinners.
If it would be true, HE Himself must have instituted the "Federal Headship of Adam", it must be HIS responsibility for the rest of mankind being sinners(He is liable, legally responsible for mankind being sinners).

 2008/1/12 15:32Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi again everyone.


I want to clarify something of my last reply here.

When I said


"I'm not sure this is the case myself"



it was in response to this...



"That is only because God made the very nature of man to be sin..."




I realise there is more to the qoute and I should have been clearer as to what I was responding to.


I don't think I will be participating in this thread as it is now.


Thanks.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2008/1/12 15:48Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Brother you have been lead by the hand through Scripture by myself and others.

Here is the explanation if you "choose" to accept it-
It is because God has decided it to be so, and He works ALL things according to His will.

There it is, and I am not going to go through this again, perhaps someone else can take up the challenge, but I have been through this with you already.

Bro Logic, I understand your frustration with these things; and the feeling that there has been no real answer to your questionings.

Some here have tried to show and explain to you the relevant Scriptures supporting the sovereignty of God.

But it has not helped.

And it [i]will not help[/i], however many scriptural proofs are brought, or however clearly the case is argued Even if the doctrine is 100% truth it still won’t help.

Answers such as, "Do not question God, He does whatever He wants", is true enough But it doesn’t still the heart-cry “Why???”

The implication that anyone who questions His will is in rebellion and needs to repent is also unhelpful, even if it were true, which it may not be.

…Maybe the book of Job has something that will help? I’m not saying that you are exactly like Job, or that some of the brothers here are as wrong (or as long-winded ;-)) as his friends!

…Imagine that the friends had not condemned Job in assuming he must have committed some terrible sin. Many of the other things they said were perfectly true. They too advised him, as you have been advised, not to question God’s sovereignty. In fact, the Lord Himself said some of the same kind of things when He appeared to Job!

HE didn’t answer Job’s questions either! His first words were a challenge for daring to want to question Him. Echoes of the verses in Romans 9, which have been referred to already.

Yet Job was satisfied, in a way that his friends’ reasonings could never achieve..

Why?

Brother Logic, seek HIM, take your questionings to HIM, and you will in the end be satisfied, as Job was.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2008/1/12 17:18









 PS to Logic

Quote:
Logic said:
This is not a "fairness" issue, but a justice issue.

As it was with Job!

 2008/1/12 17:20









 Re: Sorry to rehash

Here are some facts about God that none of us would dispute:

1. God is sovereign, all-powerful, everything in heaven and earth happens only at His will.

2. He knows everything

3. He is absolutely pure and righteous

4.He executes perfect justice

5. Above all, HE IS LOVE

These things seem contradictory if we take them in a "linear", "Logical" way (excuse the pun, Bro Logic! ;-))

How can an omnipotent God allow rebellion against Himself?

How can a God of righteousness "wink at" sin?

How can a God of Justice send someone to hell if they had [i]no choice[/i] but to rebel against Him and reject His salvation?

How can a God of love send [i]anyone[/i] to hell?

How can a God of love [i]compel[/i] anyone to love Him in return? Love, by its very nature is freely given and received, or it would be coercian.

Yet how can an omnipotent God [i]fail[/i] in His loving desire to "have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth"?

And how can an all-knowing, loving, righteous, just God [i]deliberately[/i] create some individuals for destruction?

So many paradoxes!


Maybe we are looking at Scriptural Truth the wrong way altogether! It isn't a mathematical problem but a kind of [i][b]symphony[/b][/i]! How can you listen to each individual note and try to make sense of it in relation to all the other notes? Or if you could, it would spoil your appreciation of what the music is really "saying".

Listen to the music, hold all these truths in harmonic balance, and worship the Lord who is all these things, Love, Justice, Power, Righteousness...

Ro 11:33-36
[color=990000]33 ¶ O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.[/color]

AMEN!

 2008/1/12 17:41
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Some here have tried to show and explain to you the relevant Scriptures supporting the sovereignty of God.

But it has not helped.



My point in posting what I did was simply to point out that the problem is not that none have shown logic how and why from Scripture. The problem as it was with me for awhile is that the flesh does not like it, and thus decides God must be fair to all, or He is not God.

As I have brought up before, was God unfair when He drowned the Egyptians in the Red Sea?

Did He go against their wills? After all, they wanted to destroy Israel, and I am pretty sure they wanted to go on living too.

Yet, God is completely fair in drowning them as they had sinned against Him, as have all men.

And again Brother logic, you still have no answer as to why God creates anyone who would not "choose" Him.

So you must either carry out your argument of fairness to its logical end and say that in order for God to be "fair", He will save all men everywhere that have ever existed. Ultimately, I suppose God would have to save Satan as well so that God cannot be labeled as unfair.

Ahh, but you will say that Satan rebelled against God and is rightly damned because of his rebellion. Yet man gets off free for the same thing?

Again, it seems you do not like the truth of God being Sovereign. But you would like to have an open theistic view, where God must respond to mans' decisions, and does not know all things, and is not bringing all things to His expected end.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/12 17:42Profile









 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
Some here have tried to show and explain to you the relevant Scriptures supporting the sovereignty of God.

But it has not helped.



My point in posting what I did was simply to point out that the problem is not that none have shown logic how and why from Scripture. The problem as it was with me for awhile is that the flesh does not like it, and thus decides God must be fair to all, or He is not God.

As I have brought up before, was God unfair when He drowned the Egyptians in the Red Sea?

Did He go against their wills? After all, they wanted to destroy Israel, and I am pretty sure they wanted to go on living too.

Yet, God is completely fair in drowning them as they had sinned against Him, as have all men.

And again Brother logic, you still have no answer as to why God creates anyone who would not "choose" Him.

So you must either carry out your argument of fairness to its logical end and say that in order for God to be "fair", He will save all men everywhere that have ever existed. Ultimately, I suppose God would have to save Satan as well so that God cannot be labeled as unfair.

Ahh, but you will say that Satan rebelled against God and is rightly damned because of his rebellion. Yet man gets off free for the same thing?

Again, it seems you do not like the truth of God being Sovereign. But you would like to have an open theistic view, where God must respond to mans' decisions, and does not know all things, and is not bringing all things to His expected end.

Hi Bro Lamb

And I said

Quote:
So many paradoxes!

I'm certain that the real problem isn't because of [i]anyone[/i] not liking the Truth of God being sovereign!

Job's friends were convinced that he was unwilling to face the truth too!

They were mistaken.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2008/1/12 18:00
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Sorry sister, I did not mean all of that for you. I did not divide it properly, please forgive me.

You have a point about the paradoxes though, and I think at times we must learn to be comfortable in the gray, rather than have to have black or white answers.

Grace and peace to you.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2008/1/12 19:08Profile





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