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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : A super highway being built quietly from Mexico to Canada unto the union of nations.

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 Re:

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Tears_of_joy wrote:
Probably this was my longest post on SI, it took hours and forgive me if the thoughts are not so much in order.



Brother, I see you did not just write this for one brother, but for all of us.

This entire post awed me and I know The Lord inspired you all the way through it.

It is a message to us all and I'm amazed at how it managed to come out as a burden for the whole Church.

When I'm reading and Scriptures are flooding my head, that is how the Lord confirms what I'm reading.

Thank you from me, for this post.
Thank you for being obedient to the Lord to take that amount of time, to allow Him to use your hard work for all of us.
In Jesus' Name.

 2008/1/6 12:32
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Brother ChrisJD...

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ChrisJD wrote:

I think Chris is concerned that we do not repeat things that are not true, or that will slander the reputation of others. Or maybe, if I could put it this way, of drawing waters from a polluted stream.



Exactly.

:-)


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Christopher

 2008/1/6 21:45Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

In Cccchhhrrriiisss's defense, it seems that some of us take the liberty to wander from the actual Canon of scripture to discuss political events, and then challenge others as being not heavenly minded when they disagree with our slant.

If we do not want Chris to share his views relative to the United States, then don't bring up the subject in the first place. If we feel we must warn others of the problems we see, then be able to identify when we have migrated from scripture into the realm of our sincere perspective (albeit based on research) and be willing to hear sincere perspectives in turn.

Perhaps some feel strongly that being a citizen of heaven means having no earthly nationalistic concerns and would like to avoid discussing politics. I understand that. If that's your belief, the only way I know to avoid getting stuck in the swamp of political discussion is to not stretch the borders of scripture to include your political concerns in the first place.

I understand that some sincerely feel they have a canonical revelation from God about America. Yet even these, who feel commissioned in their hearts to offer their provacative political positions, can't expect to throw the first punch and then try to thumb off rebuttal with spiritual repositioning. If political controversy is the arena you feel God has called you to enter, then take your licks with honor.;)

You know, I'm beginning to think there may have been a wise reason John's revelation concerning the beast to the Early Christians was not a straightfoward expose of Rome and Ceasar. Maybe the things we are to know from scripture are the things we find in scripture, and we shouldn't be trying too hard to find something else.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2008/1/6 23:58Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi Kire…

To start off with, I have been praying about how to respond (and even whether or not I should respond at all). You see, this isn’t a matter of defending a man, a group, a political party, or even a nation. My intent was not to defend a form of government as flawed as the United States of America. As ChrisJD correctly pointed out, it is about defending the TRUTH. People are certainly permitted to share their thoughts concerning prophecy, but they are still obliged to refrain from the presentation of hearsay, rumor or gossip as a fact. Even if their “sources” come from politicians in Congress, the obligation of a “burden of proof” should fall upon the person presenting the information rather than the listener. How often do members of the political Left (including members of Congress) question the motives of politicians on the Right as part of some “vast, right-wing conspiracy?”

In the case of this thread, a good brother brought to discussion several issues for which he asked for commentary. He did not claim any respect for these things, but admitted from the outset that they were hearsay. My response was to simply comment on those things that he presented. There is no “secret” highway. The “Amero” coin has already been debunked (on SermonIndex and elsewhere). No credible proof has been presented about “secret meetings” meant to dissolve national or governmental boundaries. No proof exists of a “radio frequency” within a national identification card (or a governmental desire to “take away our Constitutional privacies”). That is the extent of my debunking. However, this conversation can (and usually does) go further. Why?

Perhaps some individuals feel that an attack on the presented evidence is an attack on personal belief concerning prophecy OR a defense of truth in regard to individuals, politicians or even nationality. This couldn’t be further from the truth and the suspicions that arise after reading such limited posts can amount to an unnecessary “reading between the lines” or even an incorrect verdict of a brother’s beliefs or intent. Yet the very discussion of an interpretation of Biblical events often causes conflict amongst those who feel so secure in their interpretations. We need to understand that the end will certainly come – but every detail between point A (now) and point Z (the end) is not completely identifiable from the Scriptures. We also need to understand that any sort of questioning of the facts is neither an attack on the beliefs of another nor a defense of individuals, groups, political parties or national governments.

In the Scriptures, we are given few clear indications about what exactly will happen in regard to future events (and the immanency of them). Yes, we are told about things that will certainly happen (and have happened). We are told about various forms of judgment, tribulation, organizations, and even a dreaded Abomination of Desolation. We are informed about a mark. We are told about wars, famines, earthquakes and pestilences. We are told about the Judgment, the destruction of all things, and a future recreation. Upon these things, our understanding can be as near to “20/20” as Biblically possible. Yet we are surprisingly uninformed about dates, times, names, cities and nations. Even something as abundantly clear as the “mark of the beast” is not completely clear in regard to its implementation. Will it be a microchip? Will it be a bar code? Will it be a radio chip? Will it be a bank card device? Will it actually have a numbers? Will it actually have a name? Will it just be a symbol? Do you see the possibilities that this single issue raises? This is the “veil” or “glass darkly” to which I was referring earlier.

Unfortunately, there are some who feel secure on just how clearly they see the “truth” in Biblical prophecy. They feel that, after years of study, they are seeing through any sort of veil. This is a dangerous position to take – no matter what the topic. As much as I love and respect the teachings and work of men like Leonard Ravenhill, Dave Wilkerson, Carter Conlon, Paris Reidhead, Art Katz, Paul Washer, etc… -- I still understand that these are just men who are as flawed as you and I. I will continue to search the Scriptures while listening to their messages, even though I do hold them in a higher regard from the ministries of most modern preachers. In fact, when I met Brother Ravenhill as a youth, he insisted that this sort of “testing” is exceedingly needed in today’s Church. It is not a sign of disrespect to a man of God, but a sign of greater respect for the Word of God.

In the realm of prophecy, there are believers who feel that the End of all things is at hand. If we examine the beliefs and teachings throughout Church history, we will find that this has been preached since the beginning. I perceive that many believers who lived when Christ ascended felt that He would return during their lifetimes. It didn’t happen. The signs of the Lord’s return (particularly in regard to wars, rumours of wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes, etc…) have existed throughout history. I know believers who were certain that the Lord would return BEFORE the year 2000. Some even had particular years marked on the calendar for either the timing of the “rapture” or commencement of the tribulation (several pointed at 1996, 1997 and 2004). I know some believers who actually PREACH that we are living in the middle of the Great Tribulation. Is it right to preach this way? Is it any different from claiming that the mark of the beast is actually a VISA card?

Yes, there are things that we can deduce from the Scriptures in regard to Bible prophecy. I am cautious when noting the technological advances in regard to banking. But I still cannot proclaim a bar code, a microchip or a VISA as being [u]the[/u] mark of the beast. It may very well be the technology used in this regard. While I feel that quite a few things need to happen BEFORE such a mark is implemented (which could literally happen overnight), I am not afraid of the end. I will not be ignorant of the events around me, but I still don’t feel a need to “chase the wind” in this regard. The end will come on God’s own timing. My responsibility has been, and always will be, to spend my life knowing our Lord and introducing others to Him. Life, death, torture or temporary happiness matter little in comparison with Eternity. Like I said earlier, I should ALREADY be prepared to meet the Lord at any time (even if it means that I am appointed to face tribulation or suffer under God’s wrath). When our greatest pleasure in life comes from knowing Him, spending time in His presence or introducing this friendship with others, then why should we fear the future?

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When I said that you are defending the wicked ways of your nation, I didn't mean that you are doing this intentionally and in awareness of that. I believe that you are very sincere man and sincere in what you are doing. But that doesn't mean that you cannot be wrong in your estimation and perception of the things around you. And some things may be of much greater importance than you think they are. Would you allow such possibility?
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America may or may not be the great Babylonian whore of Revelation.
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That means you accept that there is a possibility of this. Will it make difference for example if it is? What will be the differences and responsibilities? And the whole perception of the things?

I personally don't claim is it is or not. I am examining. Only what I know is that it is not the 'chosen' nation and 'savior' of the world, as some movies are representing.

I agree. I personally believe that America is completely different that the idiotic presentation of the nation in movies, television and the media. I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else. But America is NOT my idol. I do not bow to this nation. I have not (nor would I) defend the “wicked ways” of this nation. However, I will defend individuals and even the government itself from allegations that are incorrectly presented as “fact.” This type of rhetoric should have no place in the conversation of a believer. Yes, we can present this information for the purpose of discussion or even question. But we shouldn’t present such things as proof about anyone’s motives or “secret conspiracy” (which may amount to slander or even “bearing false witness”).

I have traveled abroad. I’ve been through Europe, Central and South America. I’ve seen the sinfulness of cities and towns in Europe, Mexico and even Canada. How can we call America the “most sinful nation on Earth” when cities exist where fewer than 1% of the population is born again and that 1% is tortured for Christ?!? How can we smugly call Hurricane Katrina the “judgment of God upon New Orleans” when the only ones who died were the poor, elderly and destitute? Why would God pour out His physical judgment against New Orleans while cities like Amsterdam continue to sell drugs and young women in storefront windows?!? Why do we have to arrogantly call the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina part of “the beginning of God’s last day judgment” when the breach in the levees was simply the result of poor engineering? Why? Because we are waiting (and sometimes [u]chasing[/u]) for the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. I remember individuals pointing at the large amount of major hurricanes in 2005 as “undeniable proof” of supernatural fulfillment of prophecy. Then the next two years brought about relatively quiet storm seasons. Should we hold those “prophecy experts” accountable for their words from 2005? Were they not guilty of the same sort of error as those who pointed at God’s judgment in the Tower of Siloam incident (Luke 13:1-9)?
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“Some are already willing to crown America as such (and have even called everyone from Henry Kissinger to Ronald Reagan to President Bush as the Antichrist).”
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Brother, what some others have said about american presidents it's not the subject of discussion here. If someone of us participating in this thread here have said that, you are in full right to use the quote and speak against it.


I wasn’t attempting to “change the subject” or drag other issues into the discussion. I simply meant to illustrate the futility of making claims for which we all currently see through the veils of time and flawed human understanding. The same flawed claims made about former Americans a couple of decades ago are currently being made about the current president in regard to “secret meetings,” a “secret NAFTA highway,” and a secret “Amero” coin (see the initial post in this thread).
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First of all, there aren’t many “kings” left on Earth. Most of the “kings” left on Earth are mere figurative puppets rather than ruling monarchs.
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I thought you would understand that when I said kings, I mean the heads of the nations, those who rule the nations. When it is written in the Bible kings for the future, surely it doesn't mean today's office of the kings. But the kings of the bible times have been today's so called presidents.

Yes, I was aware that you probably meant “kings” in a vague manner of description. But the “kings” of 33 A.D. were quite different from the elected and term-limited leaders of today. They were more akin to the dictators of the past century who rule regardless of the desires of the people. Presidents are accountable to the laws of the nation and voters themselves. However, there are still individuals who rule nations with far greater authority than the American president (who is “checked” and “balanced” by the Legislative and Judicial branches of government). The ruling authorities in North Korea, Cuba, China, Venezuela and most Muslim nations have far more internal power than democratically elected leaders from the West. When Jesus made remarks about “kings,” he certainly knew the difference. Was he speaking of mere presidents in (Luke 21) when He said that we would be brought before them? In a current legal sense, the President of the United States has no power to compel individuals to be brought before him.
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Yes, I am aware that the nations of this world will eventually err on the side of the Antichrist. Currently? I don’t believe that there is an underlying conspiracy by the nations of this world to follow the Antichrist and persecute believers.
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Why? The nations of this world are already damned to Hell! Because the people of this world exist apart from a desire to know and embrace the Creator of all things, they are already a part of this system. That has never changed. Is there a physical conspiracy where individuals are hoping and wanting to prepare this world for the Antichrist? I don’t know.
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Brother, this is honest answer.

This is an honest answer because I personally don’t see a vast secretive group attempting to set up the kingdom of the Antichrist. Rather, I feel that the kingdoms of this world will be ready to be assumed by the Antichrist when he is revealed. In regards to America, this cannot happen with its current Constitution. This Constitution CANNOT BE BREACHED except by amendment. Even in times of Article 14 emergencies, the government of the United States cannot (under the Constitution) cede ultimate governing power to any other nation, organization or individual. Thus, for the Antichrist to take over the powers of the United States, something drastic will have to occur. What will happen? There is not a man on Earth who can honestly says that he knows with certainty what will happen.
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I feel that this work has been ongoing since Satan fell, and is primarily accomplished in heavenly realms.
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There is no doubt that it is ongoing since the Satan's fell. But the fact is that this will not be eternally ongoing, there will be time of culmination of the plans and a final end.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul even said 'ye have no need unto you' and then he continues what these times will be. In order to recognize them. The Holy Spirit was very careful of compiling every word in the Scripture. And you how much is written about the 'last days' and 'end times' and the 'signs'. This is no by accident. And if God decided to be so, that means that this is very important thing for examining the times and seasons.

We are ordered to watch and we have responsibility to do that.

Yes, brother Kire, we are instructed to watch and pray. However, I can say with relative confidence that neither YOU nor ANYONE ELSE can tell me right now just HOW the end will come. Yes, we know those things that are written in the Word. But what will happen between now and that fulfillment? The “in between” is just not very clear in regard to current events. What role will America play in the end? What role will Macedonia play? What role will President Bush play? What role will the United Nations play? We cannot claim with any certainty that these nations, organizations or individuals will even play a role. We aren’t even certain that America, your nation or the United Nations will even be around by the time the end comes. Do you see the problem with this? We can easily accuse President Bush as being part of a conspiracy to create a “secret NAFTA superhighway” in order to prepare the world for the Antichrist. But is it prudent for believers to participate in this sort of accusation?
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“In the end, the end will come. How will it come? Well, we currently look through a glass darkly. We view Bible prophecy through a veil of our human limitations.”
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Chris, that's not how the Scriptures teach us how to look into the end times. Some of the things I said in the above comments. The context of we 'look through a glass darkly' it's something else. Paul there makes comparison between what we cannot understand here on earth, and we will understand it fully on the heavens.

But the subject of the end times and prophecies is not even similar to this. The prophecies will be fulfilled here on earth. And therefore we must look for the times and season. Paul says also, which is very important:

1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Verses before that Paul is describing one of the sings of the coming of our Lord.

Jesus also said:

"ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?"

As the Israelites was must for them to discern the signs of His first coming, also we must discern the signs of His second coming. Regarding this He said:

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

We have the book of Revelation to show us the things which shall pass here on earth.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;

That means that there was a need that we as His servants know the things which will come. So we must not be ignorant. We commandment to learn the lesson and discern the times. Why?

Because:

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Note here, it says no man. It means that there will be men that will deceive other man. And if he says 'take heed' that means that it is possible to be deceived.

This word deceive is mentioned four times in Mat. 24.

Do you not see the folly in such remarks? You and I are saying the same thing: We should not be ignorant of the times. We should understand “cause and effect.” Did the creator of the telephone envision a world where people carried cell phones? Did the creator of the radio envision a world where people would listen to ungodly music? Did the creator of the television envision a world where people could watch filth that would pollute the minds of our children? Did the creators of the airplane envision a world where pilots could drop nuclear bombs or crash planes full of passengers into skyscrapers? Those were the undesired [u]effects[/u] of technology. However, we should not foolishly attribute all such [u]causes[/u] to a conspiracy. Yes, the Antichrist can use the [u]effects[/u] of technology, government and organizations. It is ridiculous to attribute everything (like a “secret NAFTA superhighway”) to “secret meetings” that never took place. We should be aware of the facts without attributing things to malice in which we aren’t fully aware of the facts.

In regard to knowing the times: Do you know EVERYTHING that will take place before the Antichrist is revealed and our Lord returns? Do you know the times? Will we see the Antichrist revealed in the next year or two? The next decade? Do you see the problem with claiming that we can be aware of things that we just can’t be sure of?
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I’ve had the opportunity to sit and meet with several members of the government (including those who sit on that infamously dreaded and often maligned Trilateral Commission). You know what? They are not made up of the most intelligent or fearsome men in the world. It is simply a private group of “experts” and “important” individuals meant to discuss international relations in regard to the three democratic economic powers when it was created (Europe, Japan and the US).
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In regards to this, I have an educational background related to such matters. I’ve literally broken bread and prayed with some important men in government. That is why it is so ridiculous to hear some of the wild conspiracy theories about some of these individuals.
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Chris, you have said this other time also. (I think it was that you have interviewed some man from the government). The fact you have sit with some of these men from the government and you have talked with them, doesn't mean anything in a sense that you know the truth. What if these men are deceived also? I would repeat the words of Jesus again, 'Take heed that no man deceive you.'

That's why I don't believe that we as christians, our place is not in the politics of this world.

I mentioned this, not as a means to boast or as an attempt to justify the actions or decisions of such men, but as a means to demonstrate that the government is not nearly as “secretive” as the media often presents. As a graduate student working on my thesis, I interviewed several members of the Trilateral Commission. You know what I found? They were just a group of nice, old men who happened to have been in office during the time period covered by my thesis. As an undergraduate student, I interned at NASA Langley Research Center three times. During that time, I represented NASA at several major government meetings and conferences. You know what I found? Some of those governors and congressmen were quite “ordinary” men and women. One of them (a high ranking member of the Senate) was worried about his wife finding out that he ate too many butter croissants at breakfast. One governor was worried about the person his daughter was dating. Another was extremely concerned about losing weight (he is currently running for President). Another kept repeatedly calling home because his dog had escaped out the front door and was on the loose. I was privileged to pray with several of these men. They were not the “vicious politicians” as depicted by the media. They were ordinary men who were doing what they thought was best to serve the people of their states.

When I worked at NASA, I witnessed some amazing examples of technology. Yet I remember realizing that my respect for NASA was grossly overestimated before my first internship. The people who worked there were ordinary people. There were no UFO cover-ups, no underground tunnels, no secret technologies, and no impending machinery that would revolutionize the world. It was simply an organization trying to discover science that would be beneficial toward mankind (by the way, over 85% of NASA’s budget goes to projects that are Earth-based, non-exploratory projects).
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I asked you in one thread, are you by profession politician or something similar. I didn't get answer, maybe you haven't seen the question.

No, I am not a politician by profession. However, I don’t see a problem with a desire to serve my neighbors and Church through government involvement or voting.
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Chris, I appreciate your zeal for truth. But I am afraid of the prejudice that you have, didn't allow you to see the other side of the coin. Let us never forget that the 'god of this world' is the father of lie.

Yes, I agree. That is why we can be “cautious” without straying into the realm of chronic “suspicion.”
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I am from other country you are from other. From kids they have taught us that everything what the official are making is the best. We are the best. Our government is the best. Movies, Media, Newspapers, Education from babies has taught us and controlled not HOW to think, but WHAT to think.

I have lived in a communist country. As a kids we have gave oaths that we will not go right or left from the path of the communist president. We had pictures from him in every home. And thousands other things that we have believed that are truth, but they were just one big LIE. We can see now. After the fall of the communism in the 1990. We saw that we have lived in BIG LIE. Now seeing the things from this perspective, it is unbelievable to believe how we believed in such LIES. We have been like a puppets. Do you know what was happening when someone will expose those lies, of course they have calling this 'rumors'. And it happened that these 'rumors' to be truth. Just be reminded of the christians under the communism. Be reminded of the stories of Wurmbrand in Romania. Jails, beatings and much more.

Now you will say, wait a min, it's not so here, we live in a land of freedom and liberty.
The question is, is this true?

Good question. There is certainly a world of difference between a closed, government fed society of communism and a nation that embraces a freedom of the press. We must be cautious about both. As David said, “[i]All men are liars[/i].” We should not fear testing EVERYTHING – even if it comes from the government or the media. The government (regardless of nationality) will say things only out of motivation. The media often says something out of a desire to influence, to appeal or to sell. We should be cautious of both. The difference between a closed media and an open media lay with the manner of which the media operates. For so many conspiracy theories about 9/11, we have a media that LOVES to mock, ridicule and slander the President and conservative thinkers. Yet the open media cannot find any evidence to support the wild conspiracy theories about the President. The legal system (filled with many ultra-liberal activist judges) cannot find any evidence to suggest that the President acted in anything but good faith in regard to the Iraq War. Yet conspiracy theorists continue to spread their message as if it were a fact.

Last year, someone brought up a discussion concerning a missionary in Mexico who claims to have raised over 60 people from the dead! American charismatic believers flock to this man’s meetings in the United States. They are attracted to such tales of the supernatural (including his supposed conversation with a 10-12 foot tall owl). Ironically, the media is attracted to such tales of the supernatural. Every time a burned spot on a torilla is shaped like a human, the Mexican media reports on it as though it were a sign from God (the appearance of the Virgin Mary or some other saint). Mexico would LOVE to report on just a single person being raised from the dead! But you know what? They never have reported on ANY of these supposed miracles. Why? Is it that this missionary is able to “hide” such things from the media? Or is he just making this stuff up as he goes?

Why did I bring this up? This is similar to the manner in which we discuss such conspiracies. I’ve often wondered just why so many people follow the likes of charismatic preachers who broadcast claims of the supernatural. I think that it is because people are simply [u]looking[/u] for verification of their beliefs. The same is true with Bible prophecy. Yes, we should be aware and even watch the events of human history (and Bible prophecy) as they unfold. But if we are not careful, we might find ourselves [u]looking[/u] for things that verify what we already perceive to occur in our prophetic timeline. Since America is the most powerful nation on Earth, it is easy to point the finger and claim that she is the great whore of Babylon (from Revelation chapter 17). Yet in reality, we aren’t completely certain whether or not America will even be around by the fulfillment of this passage.
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I will not talk about the past, but I want to say few things about the near history and today.
I'm coming to believe that this 'freedom' is more dangerous than a communism. Why? Because of the mind shaping, but now with different methods that are making false security. These are more dangerous methods. Communist said, there is no God, here they say, there is a God and He is on our side and He is in favour with us. That's why we are the best, the mightiest, the most beautiful, and we cannot be wrong.

And from a babies these teaching are pressed in the kids minds, through family, media, newspapers, movies (how many movies I have seen in my former life, how our nation is the best, the mightiest heroes, every time we are the righteous, saving the world), public education (on of the most important tool for shaping minds), etc

And all this in the name of God and even using His name. And in this way one false reality is molding. That you think that you are the 'chosen' one and you serve the to the right God, but in reality you are not either 'chosen', you are not even serving the right God, but false one. But in this way is creating one false security and satisfying the conscience and making you blind for the reality.

Yet the very same thing can be said of the African “prophet” who prophecies that America is indeed the great whore of Revelation and that her judgment is at hand. What if he is [i]wrong[/i]?

I don’t know of any believer who actually puts their faith in America. I don’t know of anyone who declares blind allegiance to this government or this nation. On the contrary, I see quite a bit of MISTRUST of government, officials, and even the information that is fed by government. Yes, quite a few Americans express love for this nation. Yet I think that America is quite different than many other nations in the underlying principle for this. America’s government is (literally) its people. The government of this nation is made up [i]of the people, by the people and for the people[/i]. So the government of the United States is literally its people. The President, members of Congress and other government officials are really mere private citizens like you and me. They were placed in office by a plurality of votes. The mayor of my town is an insurance salesman. The governor of Texas was a farmer and military serviceman. The President of the United States used to control the majority stake in a major league baseball team. They are just normal (albeit financially successful) people. As a result of this involvement of everyday citizens in the United States, there is a real fraternal brotherhood felt in America. With all of its vices and problems that are repeatedly reported by the media, a time of crisis tends to bring out that feeling of family and kinship.
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This kind of environment and system is making you blind to the real things around you and putting you into big sleep for the truth around you. That's how you are unabled to see some things that for others are very much obvious. And this kind of environment produces also fear, and when you oppose the lies it is very much possible to be judged as spreading 'rumors'.

In regard to the initial purpose of this thread, the “rumors” were simply incorrect doses of “hearsay.” If the “rumors” are substantiated with fact, then I would never have commented. But I see the spreading of such rumors as the REAL producer of “fear.” Imagine the effect of spreading the “superhighway” or “Amero” rumor to an unbeliever who is aware of these things. Do you see the damage that is done by spreading such rumors? It makes the rest of us look like uninformed religious zealots who are willing to believe anything! You know what? I have met countless unbelievers who have a “bad taste in their mouth” concerning Christ simply because of the presentation made by other believers. Zeal is not a bad thing. But zeal that embraces conspiracies that are not based upon truth is just plain ridiculous and can do quite a bit of damage to the reputation of the Church.
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Because the wicked one is very wise in his plans, and now instead of persecute the christians like in the communist countries where he saw that the church become just stronger, the blood became seed, now on the scene came false christ, an idol, not the real one. That is producing false security, that you think you are saved and serve God, but in reality you are in a big sleep. Dream that every thing is ok. And when someone is saying the truth, you respond with 'I am tired of negative things'. 'Let me live my life' 'I have right to this, to that...'

And the whole mindset of the society, 'I have freedom' 'I have freedom to vote, to chose my leader' 'I have freedom of education' etc etc While on the same time you are slave, but you think that you have freedom. In the communism you know that you don't have 'freedom', and if you are in jail you are in jail. Here you have 'freedom' but actually you are slave to the system.

Again, I understand that you are speaking of this in a general term (rather than to me specifically). But no one is saying that “everything is okay.” Even after contradicting or questioning the unsubstantiated rumors presented in such discussion, no one is saying that they are tired of “negative things.” Even though I choose to exercise by ability to vote, I have never claimed the ability to have an unchecked “freedom” to vote. Rather, I see voting (and other forms of government involvement) as an OPPORTUNITY. I have a wife and extended members of my family. I do not think that it is wrong for me to impress members of local, state or national government for remedy in certain situations. Organizations like [i]Voice of the Martyrs[/i] do this all of the time in order to secure the release of people jailed for their faith. The apostle Paul used the Roman legal system to “appeal unto Caesar,” and take the Gospel to Festus, Caesar, Rome, etc… Was he a “slave” to the system? Or did he simply use the existing system for the benefit of the Gospel? In my mind, it is like using a reputedly “evil” outlet like the Internet in order to bring the light of the Christ (such as is done by SermonIndex).
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Just look how the system is made (not just in USA). Every need of God is eliminated. You don't need God because there is health system and they will take care for you. You have insurance. You have every month money, food, clothes. You have everything. And the need of God is eliminated. Without knowingly, the system is eliminating God from the scene, and the state is becoming god. And you think that all these things are benefits of the society, and not realizing that those very things has removed God slowly but surely from the throne from your heart, and they put the system and the state. And in the same time you are told that 'we are nation under God'. But the real question is, which God?

Literal picture from Revelation

I am rich,

and increased with goods,

and have need of nothing;

and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked

This kind of christianity is ready to declare that everyone who said once in his lifetime that is born again that he is truly such, without seeing the fruits. That's the way to be exposed to even greater delusion, if you believe him.

This kind of system and christianity is also producing so much false teachers and prophets, who are spreading this kind of gospel to every part of the world. So called missionaries spreading not the gospel of Christ, but some culture and system. I have seen many, they are on my town also. The harm that they have made to the gospel is indescribable.

Yes, brother, I agree. But this is not an American (or even governmental) problem, this is a HEART PROBLEM. It is reflective of those who truly do not fellowship as they should with the Lord.
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But, there are still prophets and real teachers who warn the body of Christ. Who warn of the great falling away and the apostacy and the great sleeping. The most listened compilation on this site, the revival hymn is beginning with the words, "The church of Jesus Christ is large sleeping today, saying Please don't wake me up, I want to sleep ON" When you sleep, you are dreaming and this is not the reality. Reality is something else.

How can you sleep?

Brother Greg put this compilation some time ago. This man is saying:

"You can't say that you were not warned,
you cannot say that there was not some Noah that didn't preach to you 120 years, but you have ignored saying, WHO IS THAT MAN, oh that's just Noah, he is going to the church house, that's just Noah, he is always talking NEGATIVE, that's just Noah"

I believe that there are many, many Noah's today. Many are on this site. And God is using this site, I believe in this. To preach the serioussnes of the Gospel and warn the people and the church to wake up from the sleep.

Again, I agree. We need men who are SERIOUS about preaching the truth. However, this isn’t just the case for those living in our time. The present need is because men have abandoned the truth for generations! We need the TRUTH! That is why we need to be careful about preaching elements of conspiracy theory that are not completely confirmed by fact or by God’s Word. If we aren’t preaching TRUTH, then what are we preaching?
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I have heard that the talk of the end times is producing fear and negativism etc Why to produce fear? Why to be afraid of truth? Isn't our Lord coming soon to see Him? Or we want to enjoy one year more in our comforts and luxuries? In our sleep? In our pride? In our material goods? One year more of fleshly comfort? That's why we don't want to hear someone talking about the end days. What is more gloriously than to know that you will meet your Saviour?

I would like to finish the one post by brother Jim (jimdied2sin), who went pretty unnoticed:

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20575&forum=35

I want to write something that will make me very unpopular. I believe that we (among the revival crowd) have a false sense that we are the repairers of the wall, when in fact many are on the verge of being handed over to the greater darkness and reprobation.

I haven’t heard anyone say that “talk of the end times is producing fear and negativism, etc…” This could be due to the fact that I don’t read every thread on SermonIndex. I have many other responsibilities in life that prohibit my life from revolving around SermonIndex (and even other believers, for that matter). We need serious men for such a serious time in history (we always have – for people have died by the multitudes throughout history without Christ). We need a strong wake up call to the Church. We need to return to the simple faith of just knowing our Lord in truth.

I do see how some brethren on SermonIndex tend to affix themselves on their own particular views of doctrine (including those concerned primarily with personal prophecy and study of the End Times). I don’t know that I would stray so far to say that there is a consensus of individuals (of the “revival crowd”) who are on the “[i]verge of being handed over to the greater darkness of reprobation[/i].” I have, from time to time, noticed some brethren who are almost willing to rhetorically HAND OVER (to “greater darkness of reprobation”) those who don’t completely agree with their message or doctrinal views. This can be a dangerously judgmental path to take.
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I wonder how many have come here, listened to these messages, listened to Ravenhill, Wilkerson, Washer, Tozer, etc and haven't even made an effort to scale down their lifestyles so they could feed the poor or support missions, I wonder how many continue in willful sin through unbelief although their ears have heard that Christ came to purchase for himself a free and spotless bride. Brother I wonder how many here on the forum spend more time praying then watching TV. I wonder how many, as one dear brother wrote recently, are moved from their beds by the Spirit at night into a closet or bathroom to weep before God.

How long can we waver between two opinions?

If entertainment is God then serve entertainment.

If the comfort of your flesh is God then serve the comfort of your flesh.

If talking about revival is God then continue talking about the thing that you have no intention on ever paying the price for anyway.

If the American dream is God then continue to serve the American dream.

If meaningless church activities are God then continue on in them

If self preservation is God then continue to save your life, when in fact you are losing it.

If unrighteous mammon is God then continue to serve and take comfort in unrighteous mammon

But if the Lord, He is God, then turn to Him with all of your heart today. Whoever tries to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for the sake of Christ will find it!

Good words. I agree. I would also suggest that we should cling unto our Lord with a honest desire for purity of heart and truth. We should refrain from making allegations based upon rumor, gossip, or even beliefs that are unessential and different than our own. We should be unwilling and unable to separate ourselves from the brethren because of mere differences in doctrinal perspectives (if those doctrines or thoughts are irrelevant to our relationship with Christ anyway). We should live as though we were prepared to meet our Lord – come what may. Even if the world falls around us, our eyes should be fixed upon the Author and Finisher of our faith (Hebrews chapter 12). We should not fear the End (or how it comes), because this “End” is not our “end.” We will have no End, because our hearts are fixed upon eternal bliss with our Lord.
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Chris this was as respond to you, but I continued to write generally. So, not all sentences are directly to you. I hope you will understand what is to you what not. Probably this was my longest post on SI, it took hours and forgive me if the thoughts are not so much in order.

I, too, apologize for the lengthiness of this post. I didn’t want to comment at all, but I wanted to clarify what may have been misunderstood from my earlier posts. I agree with the essence of much of what you have written. Like the old songs say, “[i]Take this whole world but give me Jesus[/i]” and “[i]I’d rather have Jesus than anything this world affords today[/i].”

Be encouraged, my brother.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2008/1/7 14:11Profile





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