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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : King Saul – A Man Who Started Well -poonen

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PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Did Saul ever really want to be that '.. other man'?



Hi Dorcas,

Good question. I would have to say, in all fairness to Saul, yes, and I base this off the godly attributes he exhibited in his younger years. We really don't know how long he ruled before things started going bad. Such is the cancerous effect of power in the wrong hands (or heart). But I don't believe the honorable traits in his youth were feigned; I believe such qualities of grace and reverence for the Lord and the Lord's prophet are what caused God to single him out in the first place for king.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/12/24 22:28Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Are you prepared to use this scripture as the qualifying factor God used to anoint Saul ruler over Israel? Physical features? I would rather think that the Holy Spirit mentioned Saul's physical traits to contrast the people's qualifications over God's. I contest that Saul had both, and that's why He was chosen by both the people and God.



No, that is not God's qualifying factor. Israel lusted after a king and God gave them one according to their lust. David's "heart after God" is more of God's qualifying factor (if there is such a thing)

Quote:

Samuel told Saul, "...you have not kept the command the Lord your God gave you. Had you kept it, the Lord would have established your kingdom over Israel forever."



Yes..and if Judas would have repented he would have been saved. But "God's will" will be done. It was God's will for David to be king because David would typified Christ. God knew this all along. Saul was not a "surprise" to God. It was God's will to raise up a man "not after God's own heart" and then to "raise a man up after God's own heart". Just like it was God's will for Abraham to have children by Hagar...before Sarah. How do you know this? Because Galatians 4 - a type of the law (God doesn't make mistakes). In the same way God used Saul for His own purpose.

Quote:
I believe God had chosen him, because he saw potential, he saw humility and godly traits.



If those Godly traits were there before God called him what happened to them after God called him? Seems like they disappeared. Even after God changed his heart. Also, God does not call people based on godly traits. God calls people based on His Own Call. God called Jeremiah from the womb. God called John the Baptist from the Womb, Moses...ect. And in the new testament it says God choses the foolish.

 2007/12/24 22:47
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Israel lusted after a king and God gave them one according to their lust. David's "heart after God" is more of God's qualifying factor (if there is such a thing)



This is true, the king was given according to their lust, though this does not mean God deliberately gave them a bad king. We find, for example, the reverse in Mannaseh: the king starts off bad (really bad), repents, and finishes good. The truth is, you can't prove from scripture that Saul's reign, from the very beginning, was disingenuous.

Quote:
It was God's will for David to be king because David would typified Christ. God knew this all along.



Brother, I won't argue this. But this doesn't prove that Saul was never a man after God; it only shows that God knew he would eventually fail and David would be crowned in his stead, ushering in the Messiah through Judah rather than Benjamin.

Quote:
It was God's will to raise up a man "not after God's own heart" and then to "raise a man up after God's own heart". Just like it was God's will for Abraham to have children by Hagar...before Sarah. How do you know this? Because Galatians 4 - a type of the law (God doesn't make mistakes). In the same way God used Saul for His own purpose.



Ah, but Galatians was written [i]after[/i] Genesis; the impetuosity with Hagar wasn't prophesied. We can draw bullseyes around the arrows, especially concerning the law. We've drifted into theological assumptions here, a new debate, one regarding the absolute sovereignty of God (which I do not deny), that everything we do, say, think, feel, has already been pre-ordained by God, and I'm still not so sure about this. I still believe the decisions of men may have a bit of clout in the sovereign workings of God (according to God's own will, that is :0) in certain areas. Ah, but what do I know! I'm just a dumb mortal creature, a pile of dust with some breath in the nostrils.

Quote:
If those Godly traits were there before God called him what happened to them after God called him?



The same thing that happened to Solomon's wisdom when God said he would tear the kingdom from his hands. Interesting that wise king Solomon turned into a type of ferocious Saul, seeking to murder Jeroboam, the new king "chosen" by God to rule over Israel.

Quote:
God does not call people based on godly traits. God calls people based on His Own Call.



Amen - God "called" and anointed Saul, though I don't see how this disproves Saul's genuine godliness in the beginning of his reign (if he was, in fact, as you propose, ungodly).


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/12/24 23:30Profile









 Re:

ah...don't forget this question of mine. :)


If those Godly traits were there before God called him what happened to them after God called him? Seems like they disappeared. Even after God changed his heart.

 2007/12/24 23:48
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Here, brother:


If those Godly traits were there before God called him what happened to them after God called him?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The same thing that happened to Solomon's wisdom when God said he would tear the kingdom from his hands. Interesting that wise king Solomon turned into a type of ferocious Saul, seeking to murder Jeroboam, the new king "chosen" by God to rule over Israel.

(edit) Remember, Saul's new heart - like Solomon's wisdom - was given by God while he was king.


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/12/24 23:49Profile









 Re:

I don't think Solomon's situation is the same thing. Discussing Solomon would probably take a whole new thread.


(edit) Solomon asked for wisdom. Saul asked for nothing. I'm not sure the "change" God did in Saul's heart is like the new birth. The change didn't bring Saul into a place of love for the Lord or to humility that brings about obediance.

 2007/12/24 23:57
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re: "godly trait"


At least one of those "godly traits" the shyness that made him hide behind the stuff can be intrepreted as humility but it ain't neccessarily so because many of us have met plenty of shy people that "seemed" humble until we pushed the right buttons ,i.e. told them truth that they did not want to hear, and that "self-conciousness" turned out to be a passive aggressive pride instead of humilty... that one I have seen too many times...

Clint


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2007/12/24 23:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:
At least one of those "godly traits" the shyness that made him hide behind the stuff can be intrepreted as humility but it ain't neccessarily so because many of us have met plenty of shy people that "seemed" humble until we pushed the right buttons ,i.e. told them truth that they did not want to hear, and that "self-conciousness" turned out to be a passive aggressive pride instead of humilty... that one I have seen too many times...



it could have very well been fear or inadequacy as well.

 2007/12/25 0:04
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

"And I was with thee whithersoever thou wentest, and have cut off all thine enemies out of thy sight, and have made thee a great name, like unto the name of the great [i]men[/i] that [i]are[/i] in the earth."


- 2Samuel chapter 7 verse 9(KJV)






"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [i]in whom[/i] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."


"I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;"


- Isaiah chapter 42 verses 1 and 6(KJV)


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/12/25 0:10Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re: it could have very well been fear or inadequacy as well.

That is certainly true... and both of you brothers have raised some good points... Plenty, far too many have started out well like Joash and have fallen away for various and sundry reasons... all the more reason for all of us to humbly seek God daily "lest there be in any of us an evil heart of unbelief" or lest "some root of bitterness springing up trouble us and many be defiled"... too many "lests" in the Word for any of us to "think too highly of (ourselves)" or to "think we stand" when some trial or temptation that we did not anticipate catches us without being armed with prayer and the Sword of the Spirit..."he that endureth until the end"...

May we all do that by the grace of God...

God Bless you all and I hope if you are celebrating in the AM that you have a wonderful Christmas day.


Edit: not just "both" but all of you brothers AND sister..
Clint :-)


_________________
Clint Thornton

 2007/12/25 0:11Profile





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