| A lot of noise for nothing|
Right now Metallica are having their concert here in Gothenburg. I can hear it all the way up to the dormitory where I live - even though the concert is held at the soccer stadium downtown, about 3 km away... Isn't that amazing - people shouting so loud for something that is basically nothing? Talk about soulish. :-(
However, the sad part is that I have experienced a similar phenomenon in Christian meetings a number of times, not at least at big conferences. Loud music, with the bass drum pumping so hard you can actually [i]feel[/i] it physically. At one time, I remember having to restrain myself from going along with the whole thing, so strong was the reaction that the music itself created. And yes, I definitely believe that it was a lot more soulish than spiritual. That was a revelation to me of the power of the soul. Very interesting. And frightening.
Anyone who recognizes what I'm talking about?
| 2004/5/30 16:16||Profile|
| Re: A lot of noise for nothing|
By the way, it reminds me of a song by Sting - "Let your soul be your pilot". :roll:
It's a tradgedy that we so often do exactly the same thing in today's Christianity...
| 2004/5/30 16:47||Profile|
Santa Clara, CA
| Re: A lot of noise for nothing|
Where would you like to start?
Was actually a huge fan of the mighty Metallica long before they became 'popular'.
A particular song "Master of Puppets" had a profound effect on my realizing that I was killing myself with the speed and coke I was doing at that time.
But as a 'war veteran' of that whole scene and an old guitar player I can certainly relate to what you are talking about. Can recall times of being physically ill from the bass pumping through my body.
How does this all relate to what you are describing? Certainly I would agree that it is 'soulish' and have been in situations where it was even demonic, even though I wasn't a Christian at that time. That's from the secular side of things. I haven't been to a "Christian" concert unless you wanted to count Stryper back in the day.
To tell you the truth I don't know what to make of it. After being converted my dreams of being a 'rock-star' just fell by the wayside and I never really set out to "Stop listening to all this 'devilsih' music" :evil:
It just kind of faded away and I lost interest.
Probably haven't listened to more than an hours worth of secular music in years.
It does seem on the one hand that a lot of newer Christian music at least got away from 'trying so hard to be different' that it was just....weak. The musicianship is a lot better, but the content and depth of the lyrics...hmmm, I don't know. Some of it is pretty good, guess it's like anything else in Gods economy, is it real? Is it true and from the heart? Or is it 'soulish' and emotional, manipulative? If it was real, would it matter how loud or quiet it was? I don't know...
Now I have "exit light..." stuck in my head...
| 2004/5/30 17:13||Profile|
Hmmm... Christian music (whatever that is) or Christian concerts sure could be interesting to talk about, but that is not what I was referring to. The experience I described happened at a regular night meeting (if you know what I mean, perhaps it's not the right word) during a large Christian conference here in Sweden. It was during the time of [i]worship[/i] that the music (itself) was so... ..what shall I say... ..almost intoxicating. That's why it was such an eye-opener.
Since then, I have thought about this many times - how we use music to move people into a certain kind of emotion. Normally, we say that the music helps people come into the presence of God, but how do we know? How do we know that it's not just soulish or even manipulative? Who even considers the possibility that it may [i]not[/i] be pleasing to God but perhaps the very opposite? (Amos 5:23)
But, I do agree with you Mike, I'm not really sure what to make of it either. It's not easy. I love music and believe it is a gift from God, no question about that. And I know times when a piece of music really [i]has[/i] moved me into the presence of God, just like a beautiful day in God's nature can make me lift my heart in praise to the Creator. But then again, most times I have a definite feeling that we use music in the wrong way, that our motives are wrong. I have a feeling that we haven not yet seen all that music could, or should, be...
I have a lot more to say about this, since music is one of my greatest passions. So, feel free to comment and we will see where it leads. :-)
Hoping for a fruitful discussion,
| 2004/5/30 18:54||Profile|
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11
At one time, I remember having to restrain myself from going along with the whole thing, so strong was the reaction that the music itself created. And yes, I definitely believe that it was a lot more soulish than spiritual. That was a revelation to me of the power of the soul. Very interesting. And frightening.
Brother Rikard you have hit on a big topic here but its vital and important to understand and appropriate. I know exactly what you mean about the distinction between 'soulish' and 'spiritual' especially in music. Have you read the book: "Power of the Latent Soul" by Watchman Nee? Art Katz actually mentions it as a MUST read to understand the primary truths about this topic. Here is the audio piece that part way through he touches on this subject, its a MUST listen:[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=4165]The Love of the Truth (video) [/url].
Brother this could work out into a very fruitful and interesting discussion. Another small note its intresting to NOTE that many of the so called revivals that are taking place put their emphasis on music even that the revival its self is run by the new revelation, or annointing in the music. These are defently days that we need to exhibit godly discernment.
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
| 2004/5/30 22:32||Profile|
Yes, this is an interesting discussion. My wife is an accomplished pianist and sometimes I can sense when the Holy Spirit annoints her playing. As much as I enjoy that, I think the lyrics are much more important than the music itself and I see much contemporary Christian music that is lacking in lyrics. I also sing in a praise team and I worry that we stir the emotions, rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to stir the heart.
I also see this move to get people stirred up emotionally in many places and oftentimes there's not much substance to it. So we "feel" closer to God, but the end result is that we ended much where we started. There's certainly nothing wrong with being emotional but if we end at the same place we start surely something is wrong.
| 2004/5/30 23:06||Profile|
| Re: revivals|
many of the so called revivals that are taking place put their emphasis on music even that the revival its self is run by the new revelation,
Where are these revivals? Outside of the U.S.? I never hear about any. I only know of the old Toronto, Brownsville and Pensacola ones from, what, 10 yrs. ago. Are there others too?
I guess I thought the old ones were pretty much washed up and people had moved on. If not, that is too bad. All I can say is "woe to the shepherds".
Music is one of our family's passions too. We are very discerning with our music and it must be glorifying to God. If you look hard enough you will find many independant bands who totally want nothing more than to honor Christ with their music and lives. Independantbands.com is a pretty good site to find good music where they are not in it for the fame or money-or being managed by money-hungry managers.
in Him, chanin
| 2004/5/30 23:14||Profile|
| Re: A lot of noise for nothing|
"Anyone who recognizes what I'm talking about?"
In the currently featured video, The Love of the Truth, Art Katz speaks of the social pressure we feel to enter into this kind of thing.
We feel we dont want to be odd. We dont want to be different from all the other worshipers around us who have entered into a church service in which "[b]religious manipulation is described as the moving of the Spirit and amplified noise as worship [/b]
Everybodys oohing and aahing. Lots of Amens and Halleleulas and loud choruses and exclamations and ecstatic references until you feel, Gee, maybe theres something wrong with me. I better enter into this, and you do -- by the flesh.
In the video he points out how dangerous it is to enter into this deception. To stifle our conscience and participate is gradually, more and more, to dull our capacity for developing discernment.
Elsewhere, he writes,
"Do you know how I test whether something is of God or not? I still my soul, because the false preachers want you to be engaged by your soulthe noise, the amplifiers, the music, the motion, the activity, everybody moving and getting into the act. I become like a lump, a painful disjuncture. I am "out of it," and it is not pleasant to be "out of it" when everything is tugging at you to be "one of the boys" and to go along, but there I am, standing like a lump, not measuring by my soul. I have shut that off.
"In fact, can you even distinguish between your soul and your spirit? Or is it one big blur? I wait to see if my spirit is hospitable to what is being mediated, so that I know if it is compatible with my already-existing knowledge of God."
from Holiness or Blessing? (audio transcript)
by Art Katz (available here on SI under Articles)
Audio Version here: (on SI)
Holiness or Blessing? (audio)
In Chapter 2 of The Anatomy of Deception, he writes:
""[i]"And you shall speak to the sons of Israel, saying, This shall be a holy anointing oil to Me throughout your generations. It shall not be poured on anyones body, nor shall you make any like it, in the same proportions; it is holy, and it shall be holy to you. Whoever shall mix any like it, or whoever puts any of it upon a layman, shall be cut off from his people [/i](Ex. 30: 31-33).
"Clearly, the warning is not to counterfeit the anointing oil, or fabricate something like it.
[b]How many of us would consider the use of amplifiers to psyche people up by creating an atmosphere for the Spirit as being fabricating the anointing oil?[/b] God will anoint what He appoints, not what we establish for our own satisfaction and enjoyment, or for the assurance of a good service. Let us not make any other like it."
"In his book, The Latent Power of the Soul, written in the 1920s, Watchman Nee warns about soulish power, and the deception that can be brought about through the use of musical instruments, and that was before the advent of amplifiers."
Nee's Latent Power of the soul may be read at:
| 2004/5/30 23:18||Profile|
My wife is an accomplished pianist and sometimes I can sense when the Holy Spirit annoints her playing.
I sense this same thing when my daughter sings and plays her guitar. She only plays songs that the Lord has given her (helped her write). The Lord can annoint someone for music and for it to bring him glory. When she played for my mom (who is very lukewarm and in denial)- it brought her to tears. I was glad! It touched something within her that she won't let go of. If the Lord can use this to bring brokeness and surrender- yea!
Throughout my whole brokeness period, I leaned heavily on music (Shane Barnard to be exact) to help me get through it. The words were what was in my heart and I felt so alone in my beliefs and convictions at the time. It was nice to know someone out there felt this love for God's glory, and was traveling this path towards finding more of him and become less of self.
in Him, chanin
| 2004/5/30 23:27||Profile|
| Re: A lot of noise for nothing|
I didn't notice your 22:32 post until after I pulled the trigger.
| 2004/5/30 23:32||Profile|