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 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
Can you show me where in this thread I have stated i do not believe in the gifts? I believe in the gifts, but i also believe gifts apart from the fruit of the spirit is of satan. I believe there is genuine gifts from God, also believe there are false gifts by satan.

I post articles i feel are according to what I consider be in line with what the sum of all scripture teach,

and for your information i am currently attending and sharing fellowship at a pentecostal church.



Amen & Grateful for your threads Brother Christian.

I also strongly believe in ALL of the gifts.

I also have been accused, (not here though), of not believing in "walking in the spirit or knowing about the gifts." :-P
I just don't believe in posting "spiritual exploits & phenomena", as some like to focus on. (Again, not here.)

It seems as soon as you turn to the Acedemics of the WORD, you're labeled Baptist.

Well, that's a compliment to Baptists then. :-D

We're just asking for the balance ~ "Spirit & Truth." It's a beautiful thing to see, when it happens.





 2007/12/17 11:57
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

wow I ask a question and envoke such responses.
I am only asking and not putting anyone on the spot . I only am making an observation from reading threads that focus on scrutinizing one segment of the body.[or demonising]
I went back and read my question and from it could not come up with any thing derrogatory.
Remember we are talking about false miracles[which i dont think anyone has seen] of Gods people. Since this is not seasoned with true miracles, it would seem appropriate for someone to present that side


would it not?

David

 2007/12/17 13:22Profile









 Re:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
Wait a minute.........You guys wouldnt be of baptist origin would you? It seems as if you think anyone operating in the gifts is false. OK,lets start from here .....Does God still do miracles or did all miracles cease? I think this could be the root of the false prophet labeling.
I started thinking last night,Its funny how only those operating in the gifts get such a low score with the bretheren here.

Hi again, David

Like most contributing to this thread, I move in spiritual gifts and have seen miracles, therefore no-one is putting a "low score" on such. It seems you [i]choose[/i] to misunderstand this fact because you don't want to face the truth.

The plea is for [i]discernment[/i], which you seem to see no need of.

It isn't a matter of criticising one group of people against another. Neither is it to do with whether we disagree with particular speakers or not. [i][b]It's a matter of understanding, and being able to recognise the difference between genuine and counterfeit.[/b][/i], Which you seem totally resistant to even wanting to do!

I begged you to ask the Lord to show you. Have you done it? Why not?

Are you afraid of what He would say?


Love in Him


Jeannette

 2007/12/17 13:45
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:

Remember we are talking about false miracles[which i dont think anyone has seen] of Gods people. Since this is not seasoned with true miracles, it would seem appropriate for someone to present that side




I have seen people claiming they healed a person, one of the persons you named, and when some TV reporters followed up the story it turns out the boy was never healed, and when they do some more research it is just case after case of claimed healings that never took place. And this man is also caught on camera lying. I can PM you the link to this documentary, it is on youtube. It is also interesting it is a secular channel that made this documentary. Not the "baptists" ;-)

And i really dont have to see a false miracle to believe in them, because the bible speaks about them.

you may disagree but i dont think you seen a demon or an angel, yet you believe, i presume in the reality of such.

I have never seen a dead man raised, but i belive such things may happened just as scripture says, scripture also says false miracles happened, and Warns again, and again of being deceived....

so, we can ignore it and say it is all from God , or we can believe what it says, and continue to talk about how to discern who and what is false. And how we best come to that conclusion.

I think you Americans have a saying that goes

"better safe then sorry"

God bless you mightily!


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/12/17 14:25Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Littlegift,Yes i do see your point and I dont want anyone in false anything including myself.
But I will say this,Peter missed it but wasnt demonic and you and i miss it and I know you are not demonic.
I learned a couple of things in walking with God and I learned from sermon index.
the last few years in my walk have been intense and had i have known what was damaging at first I could have saved a lot of grief.
But what I do know i will never give up.
It came from heaven and nothing can replace it.
My experience is almost exactly opposite of youguy's.
I invert almost everything said.
most of what i see in the gifts is exactly backwards from you.
I only went to one benny hinn crusade and it blew me away.
You guys seem to think I hang on every word of benny hinn.
I have checked him against the word and found him wrong. But mostly right.
I love doctrine and I absolutely love talking to you guys. It is the highlight of my day!
I disagree with hmmhmm on so many things, but he seems so big hearted.....how can you not love the guy?
yes we do disagree but i feel we all are at lest trying to love one another.
And I can assure you I will endever to stay pure doctrinally.
I learned that things that seem virtuous sometimes will barely stand the light of heaven.
And clice's sound good but mostly are empty.
my walk is so different from yall and it burns inside me to see the dead raised and lepers cleansed and blind eyes opened.
I did see blind eyes opened once. Its like cathing a big fish,it will make you go back.
Are we so distracted in celebrating the false we miss opportunities to raise the dead.
I have tried raising the dead twice, I was right there at the corpse, but i lost my nerve and never prayed.
There is something about those dead people that gets to me.
I know one day i will.

Now do you see??
Who will teach me??? who will show me?? who is doing this?? I have no one to show me!! It is imparative to me that the WORD lives!! I am an infant in miracles.
The ministry of elisha is almost non existant.
Does our God live????
The apostles FLOWED in miracles. What are we???
religeous people with no power? May it never be !!!


David

 2007/12/17 15:31Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

David and I agree on that we disagree with each other :-)

we look at it differently, we do share this view and burden

Quote:
it burns inside me to see the dead raised and lepers cleansed and blind eyes opened.



and when i read that brother the words of Art Katz came to me

and even as i know what you think brother, maybe this you can agree that there may be some truth in it. Even if you dont, still my own personal belief is there is something of great importance in this excerpt

[i]The account of Ananias and Sapphira in the Book of Acts is a remarkable episode of an incident that occurred in another age, in an hour when the Spirit of God prevailed in such magnitude and purity that the very same act which might well be applauded today, resulted, in that day, in sudden judgment and death. By applauded, I mean that we do not ask questions about those who give great contributions to the Church, but instead, we give such a person a place of honor and acknowledgement, a deacon at least, if not an elder. But the Church, which identified the lie and was not impressed with the sum, is not the Church of today.

It was the Church in its glory then, because it was alert to the issue of truth and deception, because it knew that before the Spirit of God manifests as the Spirit of power, He is first and foremost the Spirit of truth. When truth is disallowed, when truth is compromised, can we think that the dove is going to be around to perform the expressions of power that serve our needs and gratify our souls, if we have forsaken Him and His first designation and identity as the Spirit of truth? There needs to be a jealous regard for the truth that Peter exercised, enabling him to discern the fraud of a man and his wife giving a sum of money, however impressive, presenting it as the whole, though it was only in part. [/i]

But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back some of the price of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.”

And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last; and great fear came upon all who heard of it (Acts 5:3-5).

Almost in the next breath we read,
And at the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place among the people; and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s portico (Acts 5:12).

[i]In other words, the respect for the Spirit of God as [b]the Spirit of truth makes way for the Spirit of God as the Spirit of power[/b]. The contemporary Church has [b]reversed[/b] it; we have celebrated the power, the signs, the wonders, and relegated the truth to a distant consideration, if indeed, any consideration at all. And which of us has not played the game of giving the part and making that to appear to be the whole? [/i]


maybe the POWER we long to see will come brother, when we do away with the false? when truth, the real truth.... comes....the miracles and wonders follow?

May Gods peace overflow in your hearts.

Christian




_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/12/17 16:59Profile









 Re:

Brother Christian, I think in all my days on the internet, I've yet to see a more Powerful word. It actually brought tears to my eyes.
Truly taken aback.
Thank you so much for this quote Brother.
In Jesus.



Edit: to add - bottomline.

Quote:
[b]maybe the POWER we long to see will come brother, when we do away with the false? when truth, the real truth.... comes....the miracles and wonders follow[/b]

 2007/12/17 17:11









 Re:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
Littlegift,Yes i do see your point and I dont want anyone in false anything including myself.

I'm so glad to hear that, Brother. If that is so, then listen again to some of those preachers you are defending, with the aim of discerning rightly. [i]Specifically[/i] ask the Lord to show you if there is something spiritually wrong or not. He knows your heart and He is faithful. We all make mistakes, it has taken me many years of the Lord's dealings to get to the place of discerning - even a little - in these matters. For example, the first time someone gave me a tape of Kenneth Copeland I thought he was wonderful.

Quote:
But I will say this,Peter missed it but wasnt demonic and you and i miss it and I know you are not demonic.

I was not talking about merely "missing it", of course we all do, and that needn't be a problem.

The question is not "Does this person teach truth or error?", but "What [i][b]spirit[/b][/i] is he of? What is the source of his power when he performs these wonders?" As I said, I have personally [i]seen[/i] demonic manifestations in the ministry of Rodney Howard Browne and Kenneth Copeland. Also Cindy Jacobs.

Not naming names for the sake of it but because of personal experience.

There have been others. There was a very strange experience re the main speaker in a women's conference I once went to. (Forget the name, but she was very into signs and ownders)

As she spoke, now and again, I got the impression as of a rat peeping out of its hole. There was plainly a demon present, manifesting through her. At first I told myself off for being judgmental, but it happened again and again, until there was no doubt.

Yet the majority there, including the national leaders of the movement, thought she was wonderful, and never seemed to occur to them that there might have been an alien spirit operating through her.

Quote:
...I did see blind eyes opened once...

My friend's son was miraculously healed of cancer. The Lord told us he would be healed, and he was!

A lady I know was praying for someone else and her own leg (that was shorter than the other) [i]grew[/i] as she prayed!

My neighbour was recently healed of scoliosis (curvature of the spine) while she was having an operation for something else! When she came round her back was in agony for a time, but a couple of days after being discharged she suddenly realised that her trousers (pants) fit without her having to tuck up one side into the waistband, as she always used to, and that her back was now straight!

There have been deliverences too...

Quote:
...I have tried raising the dead twice, I was right there at the corpse, but i lost my nerve and never prayed.

There is something about those dead people that gets to me.
I know one day i will.

I don't doubnt it, but, on that particular occasion, did the Lord [i]tell[/i] you to pray? We do need His permission, you know, we can't just do things of our own will!

Quote:
Now do you see??

Yes, and I now believe that your heart is right and your passion is right. But in seeking these things, it seems you are going to wrong [i]sources[/i] by mistake.

Quote:
Who will teach me??? who will show me?? who is doing this?? I have no one to show me!! It is imparative to me that the WORD lives!! I am an infant in miracles.

So am I Brother, and your longing to know "that the WORD lives" is a challenge to me too.

But first there is a need to discern between the true and the false, the clean and the unclean, the real and the counterfeit, the divine and the demonic, and the merely fleshly.

Quote:
The ministry of elisha is almost non existant.
Does our God live????
The apostles FLOWED in miracles. What are we???
religeous people with no power? May it never be !!!

You are right, and the Lord sees the longing of your heart. And you are not alone in that longing.

But more than you yearn for miracles yearn for HIM, and miracles will follow! Jesus said "These signs shall follow those who [i]believe[/i]", not "those who pray for miracles".

When Solomon prayed that the Lord would forgive His people, when the sacrifices were on the altar, then the Fire fell - though he wasn't even asking for it!

Focus on the Lord Himself, "seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added..."

That is the only way to come into the place where we can receive true miracles.

False, demonic miracles are no substitute for the real thing. It is these that you are being warned about, not the miracles that are truly of the [i]Holy[/i] Spirit.

Elijah sat by the brook Cherith until it dried up.

He knew the Lord was a God of miracles, and had experienced them in his own life (fire from heaven, [i]ravens[/i] bringing food...!!!) He could have died of thirst, but he wouldn't move from there until the Word of the Lord came to him.

Wait on the Lord, and be of good courage...


Love in Him


Jeannette


 2007/12/17 18:50
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: False Prophets - False Teachers

I found this, and it was interesting. It contains much scriptures to meditate on. I dont agree on everything this author says otherwise or doctrines he hold but i find this excerpt to be very good.

There is a false faith in which multitudes are confidently resting.

There is a false faith by which multitudes
are deceived and will perish for ever in hell.

A false faith may be greatly enlightened and
knowledgeable in gospel truth (Heb. 6:4).
A false faith excites the affections (Stony Ground Hearers).
A false faith reforms the outward life (The Pharisees).
A false faith may speak very well of Christ (The Jews).
A false faith confesses sin (Saul).
A false faith may humble itself in sackcloth and ashes (Ahab).
A false faith may repent (Esau - Judas).
A false faith may diligently perform religious works
(The Pharisees).
A false faith may be very charitable and generous (Ananias).
A false faith may tremble at the Word of God (Felix).
A false faith may experience much in religion (Heb. 6:1-4).
A false faith may enjoy great religious privileges (Lot's wife).
A false faith may preach, perform miracles,
and cast out demons (Matt. 7:23).
A false faith may attain high office in the church (Diotrephes).
A false faith may walk with great preachers
(Demas was Paul's companion).
A false faith may be peaceful and carnally secure
(The Five Foolish Virgins).
A false faith may even persevere and hold out until the
day of judgment (Matt. 7:22-23).

If you have the faith of God's elect, it will bear examination.

If you do not, if you are resting in a false faith, you need to
be awakened so that you may flee to Christ in true faith.

D.Fortner


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/12/18 3:27Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Another interesting thought about the real and the unreal.

I have heard it said that the way bank tellers are trained to detect counterfeit notes is to handle only the genuine. They get the 'feel' of a genuine note. Maybe someone in the industry could clarify if this is true.

Any miracle, any driving out by the finger of God, any move of the Holy Spirit which does not point people to Jesus Christ, deserves are close scrutiny and more often than not our rejection.

It is really all about him, the raising of the dead, the opening of blind eyes, etc it is about him and his compassion and grace on mankind, not on the super annoiteds gift. These men/woman should rend their garments like Paul and Barnabas and proclaim, why do you do these things, we are men of like passions.

It creates a gospel that draws men because of their own lack and desire to be like God and not on the work of Gods grace. Like Peter said to Simon, your money perish with you if you think that the gift of God could be purchased with money. How many people invest huge amounts of money on tapes, seminars and books to 'learn' how to 'flow in the anointing'. Maybe if they took Peters words seriously and they understand the real reason why they are so powerless then God could do something with them.

Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. Act 8:23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Like Ravenhill also said : Oh how we want people to recognise the gifts that God has given you, but you stink with pride.

This is a sword that is directed at my own heart. I don't know of many people that have operated at this level, let alone have stayed true to the Lord. But like the rest here there is a place in God in where I know and believe and trust in the grace of God to do more than I can ask or imagine.


_________________
Zeke Oosthuis

 2007/12/18 5:24Profile





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