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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Discussion on discerning the True and the False convert

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 Discussion on discerning the True and the False convert

My best friend just got saved (by God) a week and a half ago. I'm not at liberty to share much details at this time.

Prior to this I was convinced that my friend was a godly Christian. My friend was outwardly and seemingly more holy and moral than most of the students at the bible college (that I work at).

If any one has heard Charo Washer's Testimony, it was a lot similar. Or if any one has heard John Wesley's or David Brainard's testimony...

my friend's testimony is a lot similar.

They were times when my friend even told me, "Abraham, I don't think I'm saved!" At the time I exhorted her to examine herself and I told her to look to the Cross of Christ. But, outwardly she seemed to be bearing more fruit than any other girl. Little did I understand at the time, that it was merely good works void of love and charity to God.

I want to bring this topic up, because I am somewhat traumatized. By that I mean, "It has become a very sobering reality that not everyone that says to Jesus, Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven." 1 John 2:15-17 has become a very sobering passage to me of this past week. I'm scared for some of my professing Christian brothers and sisters.

Can one truly be considered doing the will of God if he reads his bible everyday, teaches bible studies, prays early in the morning, raises his hands when he worships, weeps because his friends are going to hell, practices zealous man-centered evangelism, leads worship for the church... and at the same time he inwardly and habitually loves the world and the lust therof?

No. and I'll say it forever, No. These things cannot be so, my brothers and sisters. No man can serve 2 masters.

Those who are begotten of God are no longer a slave to sin. Let us study 1 John again and spew out of our mouths any form of godliness that is denying the power therof. It was Jesus who said those sobering words... Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish... My sheep hear my voice and they follow me... Depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God grants repentance and not man. Salvation is not works. The LORD is my salvation. God regenerates the soul and not man. Only the mercy and grace of God can save us. But, let us never forget that God's unconditional Election is never divorced from biblical holiness unto the Lord.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.

God bless you!
-Abraham

 2007/12/10 0:07
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re: Discussion on discerning the True and the False convert

Hello Abe, recently I was involved in translation of one article into my language that deals with the very subject you are asking and it is laying very good foundation on the subject. I would highly recommend to read it.

[b][url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=20072&forum=34]True and False Repentance[/url][/b]

There is also other article from same author which I haven't read it, but you may like to check it:

[b][url=http://www.gospeltruth.net/1837LTPC/ltpc01_tandf_conversion.htm]True and False Conversion[/url][/b]

or edited and paraprhased version by Melody Green & Martin Bennet:

[b][url=http://www.lastdaysministries.org/articles/trueandfalseconversion.html]True & False Conversion[/url][/b]

Knowing that you have posted articles here against the author and knowing that he is not a Calvinist, it may not fit into your theology. But it will be good if you give him a chance, what you think?

I would like to hear your response on them.

 2007/12/10 0:52Profile









 Re:

I prefer not to be called a Calvinist... the name is unimportant and John Calvin wasn't the first to teach the Doctrines of Grace. (neither was Augustine) The Spirit of God first taught them. Just spend a month or year studying the book of John, Romans, Song of Solomon, and Isaiah... and the child of God cannot escape the clear teachings of scripture.

However, John Calvin is a very gifted commentator and theologian.

I used to read and listen to Finney and I do intend to read one of the articles you sent me. I do believe Finney had good reasoning in certain matters concerning morality. However, Finney missed the heart of the gospel with his shunning to preach the whole counsel. It's the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation.

When one distorts the message of the gospel and shuns to preach the whole counsel of it, they are not glorifying God with their evangelistic endeavors.

All these following men preached a different gospel than that of Finney's gospel. There is only one gospel. There are not 2 or 3. There is only one.

The gospel these men preached contradicts the gospel Finney preached.

Matthew Henry
Christopher Love
George Whitefield
Jeremiah Burroughs
John Bunyan
John Flavel
John Newton
John Owen
Jonathan Edwards
John Knox
Martin Luther
John Calvin
Richard Baxter
Robert Murray M'Cheyne
Samuel Rutherford
Thomas Watson
William Gurnall
David Brainerd
David Livingstone
Joseph Alleine
Isaac Watts
John Gill
William Carey
George Muller
Horatius Bonar
Andrew Bonar
Andrew Murray
Charles Hodge
Charles Spurgeon
Louis Berkhof
B.B. Warfield
John Murray
Martyn Lloyd-Jones
Paul Washer
John MacArthur
Every Moravian Missionary
Ian Murray
Edward Payson
John Hyde
Rees Howells
Charles Wesley (John's brother)

I don't know if you have read some of Finney's own quotes and confessions concerning his errors. But, I posted them in another thread:

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19468&forum=36

Nevertheless, thank you for the articles. Lord willing, I shall find time to reply back to you after I have read them. God bless you!
-Abraham

 2007/12/12 4:24









 Re:

Hey, i finally listened to an audio and modernized version of Finney's true and false conversion. It was fairly helpful in the matter. Finney had wisdom in this area. However, in much of Finney's gospel presentation in makes little and even no emphasis on the grace and power of God in salvation. Much of his theology is based on "Man has the ability..." rather that God is my salvation. God is my strength. God is my redeemer. God had mercy on me and saved me from my sins. I actually found a website with nearly all His sermons in audio format. I don't advise getting too deep into His theology... It can prove to be very destructive to bible gospel preaching. and by that i mean... the grace of God. the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace are merely an outline of how God saves sinners. (by his power and his mercy)

you can simplify the points to this. It must be understood that there is a difference between common grace/love upon all men and effectual and special grace/love upon God's elect.

1. grace is needed
2. grace was planned
3. grace was secured
4. grace is applied
5. grace is victorious

I wrote the following to a sister and perhaps it will edify you in your studies on the gospel. God bless you my fellow pilgrim on earth and laborer for the kingdom of Jesus! -Abraham

1. Natural unregenerate men are slaves to sin or they're not. Their entire heart, soul, strength, and mind is in complete bondage to sin or it isn't.(Rom 1-3, Jn 8)
2. Election and Salvation is of the Lord according to His mercy or it isn't. (Rom 9-11, Psa 89)
3. Eternal Redemption for God's elect people is finished (purchased and sure of victory) by the work of Jesus at the cross or it isn't. (Rom 3-5, Isa 53, Jn 17)
4. God's powerful and effectual calling (regeneration: death to life through the gospel) upon His elect is always victorious or it isn't. (Rom 6-8, Jn 6)
5. This following verse says it all for the fifth point. "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1Jn 5:18) This verse is true or it isn't.
a. "...sinneth not": He does not live in sin, nor is he under the power and dominion of sin... though he does not live utterly without it. (see Jn 1-3)
b. "...keepeth himself": They are kept by the power of God. Therefore they keep themselves by the power of God. The child of God takes the whole armour of God, puts his hand to the plow, and does not look back.
c. "...that wicked one toucheth him not": Though we face tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, peril, and sword... the devil shall not separate us from the love of God.


Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. "

 2007/12/22 20:17
intrcssr83
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re: Discussion on discerning the True and the False convert

Quote:
by Abe_Juliot on 2007/12/10 15:07:07

I want to bring this topic up, because I am somewhat traumatized. By that I mean, "It has become a very sobering reality that not everyone that says to Jesus, Lord, Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven." 1 John 2:15-17 has become a very sobering passage to me of this past week. I'm scared for some of my professing Christian brothers and sisters.




Hi Abe,

I think that with regards to the conversation regarding the doctrines of grace, it is all too easy to enter an intellectualised, rationalist tug-of-war that while giving a good mental workout, does little for the soul with regards to leading someone to actually being pro-active in terms of what it's going to mean in their day-to-day Christian walk.

Regardless of where one stands in their views of salvation, the simple fact of the matter is that the church overall seems to be making little effort to understand what salvation actually is.


Ben


_________________
Benjamin Valentine

 2007/12/23 6:57Profile
davyman
Member



Joined: 2007/12/21
Posts: 83


 Re:

Quote:

Abe_Juliot wrote:
I prefer not to be called a Calvinist... the name is unimportant and John Calvin wasn't the first to teach the Doctrines of Grace. (neither was Augustine) The Spirit of God first taught them. Just spend a month or year studying the book of John, Romans, Song of Solomon, and Isaiah... and the child of God cannot escape the clear teachings of scripture.

However, John Calvin is a very gifted commentator and theologian.

I used to read and listen to Finney and I do intend to read one of the articles you sent me. I do believe Finney had good reasoning in certain matters concerning morality. However, Finney missed the heart of the gospel with his shunning to preach the whole counsel. It's the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation.

When one distorts the message of the gospel and shuns to preach the whole counsel of it, they are not glorifying God with their evangelistic endeavors.

All these following men preached a different gospel than that of Finney's gospel. There is only one gospel. There are not 2 or 3. There is only one.

The gospel these men preached contradicts the gospel Finney preached.

Matthew Henry
Christopher Love
George Whitefield
Jeremiah Burroughs
John Bunyan
John Flavel
John Newton
John Owen
Jonathan Edwards
John Knox
Martin Luther
John Calvin
Richard Baxter
Robert Murray M'Cheyne
Samuel Rutherford
Thomas Watson
William Gurnall
David Brainerd
David Livingstone
Joseph Alleine
Isaac Watts
John Gill
William Carey
George Muller
Horatius Bonar
Andrew Bonar
Andrew Murray
Charles Hodge
Charles Spurgeon
Louis Berkhof
B.B. Warfield
John Murray
Martyn Lloyd-Jones
Paul Washer
John MacArthur
Every Moravian Missionary
Ian Murray
Edward Payson
John Hyde
Rees Howells
Charles Wesley (John's brother)

I don't know if you have read some of Finney's own quotes and confessions concerning his errors. But, I posted them in another thread:

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19468&forum=36

Nevertheless, thank you for the articles. Lord willing, I shall find time to reply back to you after I have read them. God bless you!
-Abraham




Abraham,

Your list is missing at least one name (although I'd put my pastor, John Piper on the list, too), that of the apostle Paul.

SDG,

Dave

 2007/12/23 12:27Profile





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