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 Re:

Quote:
"...the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves..."



ChrisJD, the problem IS..many do want to use these verses to down play what they really mean. No accusations to Dorcas what so ever. Maybe she has heard someone else use these verses in a different way and is confused by it all...I really don't know.

ChrisJD, Scripture teaches scripture..So no one is striving here at all.

If by my placing scripture here bothers you in some way, and has not edified you in any way, I will not strive to argue. But you will see that 90% of that post was scripture concerning the ROD of Iron, and who it is used on, and why.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/12/2 16:39
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Katy,


"the problem IS"


You are certain you know what the problem is.


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/12/2 17:35Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Gog and Magog 1 and 2:2 conflicts

sis K-D Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

this in many ways is a departure from the topic of the thread for a moment. Sis K.D. you mentioned Gog and Magog in Ezekiel and connected that with the Gog and Magog war at the end of the Millenial Reign as though they are the same conflict but a close examination of them reveals that they are 2 different conflicts which occur i believe on either end of the Millenium.

That Jesus will Rule with a Rod of Iron speaks not only of stricts adherence to the Law but also punishment for not following it but probably more than anything, it lets us know that man is hellbent on defying God by nature, so much so that even though Jesus lives on earth with us once more, at the end of that Millenial Period, men will still rise up against Him and His Followers in great numbers. That the enemy is not there to tempt anyone and yet men continue in defiance to some degree lets us know the depth of our depravity.

if we examine the circumstances preceding each conflict, we find that they are different altogether. in Ezekiel 38:

[b][color=0033FF]1 And there is a word of Jehovah unto me, saying: 2 `Son of man, set thy face unto Gog, of the land of Magog, prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, and prophesy concerning him, 3 and thou hast said: Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I [am] against thee, O Gog, Prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, [/color][/b][u][b][color=0033FF]4 And I have turned thee back, And I have put hooks in thy jaws, And have brought thee out, and all thy force, Horses and horsemen, Clothed in perfection all of them, A numerous assembly, [with] buckler and shield, [/color][/b][/u]

in the underlined we see that it is God who has brought them out. contrast that with Revelation 20 which reads as follows concerning the forces which beseige Jerusalem:

[b][color=0033FF]7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea;[/color][/b]

so here we have the enemy being the one to gather the force together, not only that but the coalition i believe is a much broader one than the one mentioned in Ezekiel 38:

[b][color=0033FF]Handling swords -- all of them. 5 Persia, Cush, and Phut, with them, All of them [with] shield and helmet. 6 Gomer and all its bands, The house of Togarmah of the sides of the north, And all its bands, many peoples with thee,[/color][/b]

this seems to be a more pointed coalition of Arabs mainly who inhabit lands close to Israel, not only that but i believe these are largly Muslims. Some are nations in northern Africa such as the Sudan, Lybia, Algeria out to Tunisia.

also the situation preceding each war is different: in Ezekiel it is as Follows:

[b][color=0033FF] 7 Be prepared, yea, prepare for thee, Thou and all thine assemblies who are assembled unto thee, And thou hast been to them for a guard. 8 After many days thou art appointed, In the latter end of the years thou comest in unto a land brought back from sword, [A people] gathered out of many peoples, Upon mountains of Israel, That have been for a perpetual waste, And it from the peoples hath been brought out, And dwelt safely have all of them. 9 And thou hast gone up -- as wasting thou comest in, As a cloud to cover the land art thou, Thou and all thy bands, and many peoples with thee.[/color][/b]

This Gathering is fulfilled in Ezekiel 36 and is of a kind which no man will be able to deny as being the handiwork of God for Israel will have David to rule over her, that is coming to Salvation in Jesus first and then being Ruled by this King who is discussed more in the later chapters and is quite interesting to read by the way!in this period there are sacrifices offered and the land is divided up and all kinds of interesting things, it is a situation which has yet to be fulfilled at present.

Now in the Revelation conflict, Gog and Magog 2, the situation is a bit different:

[b][color=0033FF]4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years; 5 and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this [is] the first rising again. 6 Happy and holy [is] he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.[/color][/b]

however, it is the outcome of each conflict which is interesting. Gog and Magog 1 ends like this:

from Ezekiel 38:
[b][color=0033FF]21 And I have called against him, to all My mountains a sword, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah, The sword of each is against his brother. 22 And I have been judged with him, With pestilence and with blood, And an overflowing rain and hailstones, Fire and brimstone I rain on him, and on his bands, And on many peoples who [are] with him. 23 And I have magnified Myself, and sanctified Myself, And I have been known before the eyes of many nations, And they have known that I [am] Jehovah![/color][/b]

and 39:

[b][color=0033FF]1 And thou, son of man, prophesy concerning Gog, and thou hast said: Thus said the Lord Jehovah: Lo, I [am] against thee, O Gog, Prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal, 2 And have turned thee back, and enticed thee, And caused thee to come up from the sides of the north, And brought thee in against mountains of Israel, 3 And have smitten thy bow out of thy left hand, Yea, thine arrows out of thy right I cause to fall. 4 On mountains of Israel thou fallest, Thou, and all thy bands, and the peoples who [are] with thee, [/color][/b][u][b][color=0033FF]To ravenous fowl -- a bird of every wing, And [to] a beast of the field, I have given thee for food. 5 On the face of the field thou fallest, for I have spoken, [/color][/b][/u]

the KJV makes mention of 5 sixths of this horde being wiped out by various plagues and the sixth part remaining. i'm using the ylt.

39 goes on:

[b][color=0033FF]8 Lo, it hath come, and it hath been done, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah, It [is] the day of which I spake. 9 And gone out have the inhabitants of cities of Israel, And they have burned and kindled [a fire], With armour, and shield, and buckler, With bow, and with arrows, And with hand-staves, and with javelins, And they have caused a fire to burn with them seven years, 10 And they do not take wood out of the field, Nor do they hew out of the forests, For with armour they cause the fire to burn, And they have spoiled their spoilers, And they have plundered their plunderers, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah. 11 And it hath come to pass, in that day, I give to Gog a place there -- a grave in Israel, the valley of those passing by, east of the sea, and it is stopping those passing by, and they have buried there Gog, and all his multitude, and have cried, O valley of the multitude of Gog! 12 And the house of Israel have buried them -- in order to cleanse the land -- seven months. 13 Yea, all the people of the land have buried them, and it hath been to them for a name -- the day of My being honoured -- an affirmation of the Lord Jehovah. 14 And men for continual employment they separate, passing on through the land, burying with those passing by those who are left on the face of the earth, to cleanse it: at the end of seven months they search. 15 And those passing by have passed through the land, and seen a bone of man, and one hath constructed near it a sign till those burying have buried it in the valley of the multitude of Gog. 16 And also the name of the city [is] The multitude; and they have cleansed the land. 17 And thou, son of man, thus said the Lord Jehovah: Say to the bird -- every wing, and to every beast of the field: Be assembled and come in, Be gathered from round about, For My sacrifice that I am sacrificing for you, A great sacrifice on mountains of Israel, And ye have eaten flesh, and drunk blood. 18 Flesh of the mighty ye do eat, And blood of princes of the earth ye drink, Of rams, of lambs, and of he-goats, Of calves, fatlings of Bashan -- all of them. 19 And ye have eaten fat to satiety, And ye have drunk blood -- to drunkenness, Of My sacrifice that I sacrificed for you. 20 And ye have been satisfied at My table with horse and rider, Mighty man, and every man of war, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah. 21 And I have given My honour among nations, And seen have all the nations My Judgment that I have done, And My hand that I have laid on them. 22 And known have the house of Israel that I [am] Jehovah their God, From that day and henceforth. [/color][/b]

however Revelation 20 says:

[b][color=0033FF]7 And when the thousand years may be finished, the Adversary shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 and he shall go forth to lead the nations astray, that are in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them together to war, of whom the number [is] as the sand of the sea; 9 and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them; 10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.[/color][/b]

there is only 1 way in which God deals with Gog and MAgog here, fire...not only fire but a fire which devours them completey so nothing is left to clean up and thereafter the devil is cast into the lake of fire after which John sees this in Rev 21:

[b][color=0033FF]1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more; 2 and I, John, saw the holy city -- new Jerusalem -- coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband; 3 and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God, 4 and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.[/color][/b]

there is no mention of this momentous occurrence in Ezekiel but if we read on in Ezekiel we see something of the life as it will be in those days for Israel, the temple, the Prince Ruling etc. however John saw something different:

[b][color=0033FF]9 And there came unto me one of the seven messengers, who have the seven vials that are full of the seven last plagues, and he spake with me, saying, `Come, I will shew thee the bride of the Lamb -- the wife,' 10 and he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and did shew to me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, coming down out of the heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God, and her light [is] like a stone most precious, as a jasper stone clear as crystal, 12 having also a wall great and high, having twelve gates, and at the gates twelve messengers, and names written thereon, which are [those] of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel, 13 at the east three gates, at the north three gates, at the south three gates, at the west three gates; 14 and the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he who is speaking with me had a golden reed, that he may measure the city, and its gates, and its wall; 16 and the city lieth square, and the length of it is as great as the breadth; and he did measure the city with the reed -- furlongs twelve thousand; the length, and the breadth, and the height, of it are equal; 17 and he measured its wall, an hundred forty-four cubits, the measure of a man, that is, of the messenger; 18 and the building of its wall was jasper, and the city [is] pure gold -- like to pure glass; 19 and the foundations of the wall of the city with every precious stone have been adorned; the first foundation jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; 20 the fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysoprasus; the eleventh, jacinth; the twelfth, amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates [are] twelve pearls, each several one of the gates was of one pearl; and the broad-place of the city [is] pure gold -- as transparent glass.[/color][/b][u][b][color=0033FF]22 And a sanctuary I did not see in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, is its sanctuary, and the Lamb, [/color][/b][/u]

that is different to the description of Jerusalem as it is after Gog and Magog in terms of dimensions, and most strikingly i believe, there is no temple in this Jerusalem yet there is one after Gog and Magog 1.

So then Gog and Magog 1 is a separate conflict to the one in Revelation 20. it has been suggested that this may be the battle for Jerusalem for which the enemy will gather his forces at Armageddon. This may well be so since there is a cry by the angel of God for the beasts and birds of the air to come and feast on the flesh and blood of men. however these are slayed by the Sword which proceeds from the Mouth of Christ rather than plagues mentioned in Ezekiel. Then again there is a 7 month cleanup after Gog and MAgog 1 which isn't mentioned after Armageddon. Also there is a Ruler in Jerusalem installed in Ezekiel 36, David and if Gog and Magog 1 is viewed as armageddon, there is a point during that king's reign which antichrist defiles the temple...there is no mention of that in Ezekiel but rather that Israel is at peace after being restored. so perhaps it may be that the temple is rebuilt, Jews was to do that now even without being Saved, and after the desecration, Israel may come to Salvation upon being chased out into the world again by antichrist midway through the trib after being misled. Upon finding safty with the Believers in the world they see Jesus and are returned to the land at His Return and He Rules from Jerusalem. This would make Gog and Magog 1 sometime early in the Millenial Reign which doesn't bother me any given that He Rules with a Rod of Iron and the nature of men is to rebel. The Judgment is swift also.

the above is something to consider and something i pray God gives me more clarity on through those He opens these things up to.
you also said:

Quote:
No one is going to be ruled in Heaven...how awful that would be.



well, Christ does after the Millenium give all back to God who Rules Forever and Ever but it won't be with a Rod of Iron since those who are in Heaven will be Conformed to His Son's Image!

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/12/2 19:01Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 back to the matter at hand...

sis D Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Quote:
Over some time, I've felt that perhaps the 'rod of iron' is somehow a reference to the cross.



i can see how this may be. Iron is an interesting metal in that it doesn't bend when formed but breaks, however to break it requires a large amount of force. Iron is symbolic os strength and an unbending attitude toward a goal or ideal or whatever. As far as it concerns the cross, either one goes by it and lives, or passes it by and dies. Either you are under the Blood or not at all, there is no inbetween. in that respect the Rod of Iron is cross. However, its mention in the Revelation is another facet which we have to consider as sis K-D pointed out how Christ will Rule with it in the Millenial Reign so it is Law also. there is a multiplicity to the meaning of that term which we have no idea of being that it is a statement of God about Himself and He Himself is Infinite in Depth and Wisdom so much so that even througout eternity, we'll not get it all...

How Great is our God!

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/12/2 19:17Profile









 Re: a rod of iron = a cross?



IRONMAN said

Quote:
we have no idea of being that it is a statement of God about Himself and He Himself is Infinite in Depth and Wisdom so much so that even througout eternity, we'll not get it all...

Now brother, you ain't seen nothin' yet... What about this verse below here? Where is your faith? Where are you resting your spiritual eyes?

Colossians 2:
1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and [i]for[/i] them at Laodicea, and [i]for[/i] as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, [u]and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding[/u], [b]to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, [u]and of Christ[/u];
3 [u]In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge[/u][/b].

Note the use of the present tense, please. :-)

So brother, as you look to Christ and abide in Him, there are many many answers available [u]to you. Today[/u]. But you need to start thinking with your spirit in fellowship with God's and stop thinking with - as Mike Balog would call it - your fallen cranium. ;-) (I love you brother.)

And I will make some comments on your posts, eventually. I can't find 'David' in Ezekiel 36. So, is he somewhere else in the picture?


Also, as Katy mentioned the mystery earlier, I'd like to comment that I don't agree at all that the mystery is still a mystery, [i]to believers[/i] - if that's what you meant, Katy?

 2007/12/2 21:02









 Re:

Quote:
Also, as Katy mentioned the mystery earlier, I'd like to comment that I don't agree at all that the mystery is still a mystery, to believers - if that's what you meant, Katy?



No the Mystery is out in the open...no longer a Mystery to believers. Paul preaced the Gospel according to the Mystery..Romans 16:24-27. He urges the Church in Ephesians that WE, the Body of Christ, would know the HOPE of our calling.

Everything he preached along with Peter James John, Jude etc, are all of one mind and accord.

However there are several mysteries of the Kingdom, that include many things. There is also thee mystery of iniquity, the Mystery of Godlieness, etc.....probably coming under the heading of the *Hidden mannah* given to those who overcome spoken of in the 7 letters to the Churches. "The secrets of the Lord are with those who fear Him, and He will show them His Covenant".

Peter said of Paul, there are many things that are hard to understand, and those who are unlearned wrestle with to their own destruction.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did






:-)

 2007/12/2 21:36
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

SIS D Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:
Now brother, you ain't seen nothin' yet... What about this verse below here? Where is your faith? Where are you resting your spiritual eyes?



Quote:
So brother, as you look to Christ and abide in Him, there are many many answers available to you. Today. But you need to start thinking with your spirit in fellowship with God's and stop thinking with - as Mike Balog would call it - your fallen cranium. (I love you brother.)



indeed i am aware of that sis! i was making the point that the vastness of this Riches is something which requires Eternity for us to explore so we will continually be so doing. At present we know it part and so prophesy as we await the manifestation of the Fullness of what we Desire in Him. i was simply saying that as we read the word, we will learn more and grow more each time.


Quote:
And I will make some comments on your posts, eventually. I can't find 'David' in Ezekiel 36. So, is he somewhere else in the picture?



oh i'm sorry sis, he is in Ezekiel 37 :

[b][color=0033FF]22 And I have made them become one nation in the land, on mountains of Israel, And one king is to them all for king, And they are no more as two nations, Nor are they divided any more into two kingdoms again. 23 Nor are they defiled any more with their idols, And with their abominations, And with any of their transgressions, And I have saved them out of all their dwellings, In which they have sinned, And I have cleansed them, And they have been to Me for a people, And I -- I am to them for God.[/color][/b][u][b][color=0000FF]24 And My servant David [is] king over them, And one shepherd have they all, And in My judgments they go, And My statutes they keep, and have done them. [/color][/b][/u]

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/12/2 21:51Profile









 Re: a rod of iron = a cross?


destinysweet said

Quote:
He'll drop the revelation in if it is needed and important enough...don't you think?

Indeed I'm hoping the revelation I believe the Lord is giving me, will cause others to seek Him for understanding. I did not set out to study this, but, I get a great deal of sense out of the pictures God has spread for us across scripture, which usually have an uncanny amount of detail paralleled in a larger or smaller situation.

I also realise that it may not be in everybody's gift to see what I see, but I know we all have the spiritual capacity to recognise truth when we hear it (read it... ;-) ) and certainly when I read a post which is filled with revelation, it is usually apparent the writer did not receive all this wisdom in one dollop, but they grafted for in the Spirit as well as with their heart and mind. I love that. At the same time, I know that putting in time studying and reading, does not guarantee revelation. One may simply walk away with a head full of someone else's opinions, because they didn't have revelation either... but they were full enough of their own ideas and confidence in them, to write a book about it all. :-? I fear that is what has happened to a lot of Christians.

What's worrying is that often these ideas have been lifted straight out of the Bible, but they are dead as a dodo. So chapter and verse may give credibility, but sadly, no life.

Quote:
Aarons rod was in the arc of the covenant which was in the holy of holies...a shadow of what was to come in Jesus...

Okay. So, if we take the rod as a symbol of the cross, then the self-sacrificing heart of God who had already slain the Lamb before the foundation of the world, is at least hinted upon by the presence of Aaron's rod. But it was an almond, which burst into life in a very short time, signifying a life-giving rod rather than a death rod. However, I think we can say the cross of Christ is both.

It is interesting that it was the high priest (Aaron), who wielded a life-displaying rod. It makes me think that we, as priests to God, also should allow the cross to make us life-givers to others. In fact, this is worship is it not?

Romans 12
1 I call upon you, therefore, brethren, through the compassions of God, to [u]present your bodies a sacrifice--living, sanctified, acceptable to God--your intelligent service[/u];
2 and be not conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for your proving what [i]is[/i] the will of God--the good, and acceptable, and perfect.


Well, those are a few thoughts. I am delighted to hear you play the guitar and love to worship in song. I do too and I know God loves to hear it.

 2007/12/2 22:17









 Re: a rod of iron = a cross?


These are some thoughts about the almond, from christiananswers.net. To follow the linked pages in the text, you need to open the page:

[url=http://christiananswers.net/dictionary/almond.html]Almond[/url]


"The almond tree is a native of Syria and Palestine. Its blossoms are very pale pink and appear before its leaves. Its Hebrew name, shaked signifies "wakeful, hastening" because it blossoms so early, generally in February, and sometimes even in January. In Eccl. 12:5, it is referred to as illustrative, probably, of the haste with which old age comes.

There are others, however, who contend for the old interpretation here. "The almond tree bears its blossoms in the midst of winter, on a naked, leafless stem, and these blossoms (reddish or flesh-coloured in the beginning) seem at the time of their fall exactly like white snow-flakes. In this way the almond blossom is a very fitting symbol of old age, with its silvery hair and its wintry, dry, barren, unfruitful condition."

In Jer. 1:11 "I see a rod of an almond tree [shaked]… for I will hasten [shaked] my word to perform it" the word is used as an symbol of promptness. Jacob wanted his sons (Gen. 43:11) to take with them into Egypt of the best fruits of the land, almonds, etc., as a present to Joseph, probably because this tree was not a native of Egypt.

Aaron's rod yielded almonds (Num. 17:8; Hebrews 9:4).

Moses was directed to make certain parts of the candlestick for the ark of carved work "like unto almonds" (Ex. 25:33,34)."


 2007/12/2 22:22









 Re: a rod of iron = a cross?


Katy said

Quote:
The Cross is a symbol of Mercy, the Rod is a symbol of God’s wrath.

In another thread, philologos wrote, first quoting Paul:

[color=0033FF]“For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,”
(Rom 6:5 NKJV)

This 'uniting with' in the consequence of the 'baptism into death' of verse 3.

He was baptized into what we had become. He was united with it so that the judgement that came upon Him came upon it. Once and for all. He was baptized into 'our death' and we must be baptized into His. He was united by baptism to what we were and we are united by baptism (not water) to what he is.

He became Sin and the judgement that was wreaked upon Him was wreaked upon Sin. Not 'sins'; they had to be forgiven but Sin cannot be forgiven it must be executed.[/color]


I quoted because that there above is one of the most concise and beautifully symmetrical statements I have ever seen, and I couldn't come anywhere close in my own words (as you all know!) - the cross being the means of mercy upon mankind, while God executes His wrath upon Sin in the person of Christ Jesus.

Often people refer to the cross when they mean the Lord on the cross, so I don't have a problem with associating the rod of God's displeasure over sin, with His mercy towards us in Christ.

Now... did you notice that? I've just swopped the wrath and the mercy... Didn't mean to, but aren't both true?

I often see several meanings in scripture, where a word is repeated in many different contexts, and I marvel at how much truth God conveys by this economy of terminology. It's one of the joys of reading His word. :-)

 2007/12/2 22:38





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