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jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dearest Sister, Thank you for your reply.

I think this thread is to talk about the Old and New covenants and I feel we are getting side tracked here.

However, I will reply to your message one more time and then if you want to go on on the same subject I would suggest that we open a new thread.


Your quote:

"""""If we believe exactly as that scripture teaches, they were able to at least yell across to one another, as someone way saying " It's as Hot as Hades in here" ...go warn my brothers...something like that."""""


I am sorry but I found no scripture backing for this claim. The purpose of this parable was not to show us what you have just mentioned at all.
The purpose was verse 25 and we can see it clear when we compare it with

Luke 6:23-26 Rejoice in that day and leap for joy! For indeed your reward is great in heaven, For in like manner their fathers did to the prophets. 24 " But woe to you who are rich, For you have received your consolation. 25 Woe to you who are full, For you shall hunger. Woe to you who laugh now, For you shall mourn and weep. 26 Woe to you when all men speak well of you, For so did their fathers to the false prophets.


Now, there are a couple of things about Luke 16 19:31 that cannot be taken as real. One is the very fact that people in the so called Hades would communicate with the ones in Abraham's bosom as you claim. Imagine, for the ones that are in Abraham's bosom having to put up with all the agony of the people in Hades? Imagine all the people that died in the big flood screaming for them that are in the other side?
Not real, God would not put the saints through such an ordeal. Abraham's bosom would sound just like Hell!!!!!!

The other unreal thing is that fact that the rich man asks Abraham to send Lazarus back to warn his brothers. Now if that was true, One would assume that abraham could send people back from this so called Heaven at His will. And we know that it is not the case for we have the account of people who returned from their sleep as Jesus called it, but not because they were sent back from Abraham's bosom, but because someone that was alive received power from God to raise them up.

Now one more thing remains to be said about this text.
Is the fact that most of the churches nowadays, openly reject the writtings of moses as a way to lead one into salvation, some even say that there is no life in scriptures, Because Jesus said this:

John 5:39-42 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 "But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 "I do not receive honor from men. 42 "But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you.

Now to me the problem was not the scriptures, because Jesus said that these are they which testify of Me. The problem was with them, even though scriptures testify of Jesus they would not accept Him.

Psalm 119:105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

So, at the end of the text Jesus said:

If you do not hear moses and the prophets, not even the dead coming back to life will persuade them.

Quote: """"One side of this was also given a name Paradise as Jesus said Today you will be with me in Paradise""""

I ask you to read this.

Luke 23:42-43 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

The thief gives us a better Ideal of the place he was aiming for.

When you come into your Kingdom!!!!

Look at this text in John.

John 5:24-28 " Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice.

Who will hear his voice? all who are in the graves.

Now the Dead cannot be in heaven, because

Psalm 115:17 The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor any who go down into silence.

We know that in heaven the praises to the eternal God never end.

Jesus talks about the state of the Dead.

Luke 8:52 Now all wept and mourned for her; but He said, "Do not weep; she is not dead, but sleeping."

And when I meentioned 1Corinthians 15:17-18 I wanted you to pay attention to """those who have fallen Asleep"""

Now if I die and go to heaven, David said that the Dead cannot praise God, and in unccountable times we read that the dead sleeps and that they will hear the voice of Jesus when He returns to

"""STABLISH HIS KINGDOM""" Remember what the thief of the cross said:

Luke 23:42-43 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."

When Jesus said today, He did not mean that very day, for that day Jesus did not come into His kingdom, for His kingdom is not of the dead but of the living.


Quote: """"Job said, I know that my redeemer liveth, and He will raise me up and I shall see Him in the flesh"""

That is it sister, Why does Job need to return to his flesh to see Jesus, why is that? why could he not see Him in spirit?

Again, Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.


Very clear to me sis where we are until the day Jesus will call us.

 2007/12/13 5:14Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear sister,

You quoted in one of your messages that once saved always saved.

I quoted you the text

Matthew 18:23-35
Trying to make a point to the fact that Yes God forgive us but then we, guided by His Spirit to conform our lives to the likeness of His Son.
My point was that at some point some people that were saved decide not to go all the way, and therefore makes his salvation void.

My point was that Once saved not forever saved, that is what the text in matthews tells me.

You then told me your story quoting this at the end.

""""Don't judge others affairs...you never know how God is working in not only their life but others as well."""""

I do not remember passing judgment on anything or anybody, it is not my place.

Am I perfect to pass judgement on someone?definetely not. You are not the only one with a sad story, and you are definetely not the only one that struggles every single day to make the right choices to serve the lord.


As I said this is a subject out of the context of New and Old covenant so I will not be commenting on this, will be glad to comment on a different thread but I feel that this is side tracking us from the main issue of the thread.

In Love, God bless.

 2007/12/13 5:30Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I do not remember passing judgment on anything or anybody, it is not my place.



Good Morning Jayyou,

Jay, you were the one who brought up the scriptures I answered, whether off the subject or not.

The Scripture you were using " If you don't forgive others God will take back his forgivness with you is not only a weapon of judgement but a weapon misused by many teachers. If not properly explained...as I tried to do here, can do enormous damage to a soul.

I stated that with examples to show that when someone is hurting the worse thing one can do is clobber them over the head and hurt them even more by stating they may not only lose their family but their salvation as well.

I wasn't asking for you or anyone to feel sorry for anything, but to show how God works in the life of His Saints.

My original reply to you....perfectly in keeping here with Covenant, was one must understand the Everlasting Covenant and all the other Covenants under the Everlasting Covenant before we can rightly divide the Word of Truth on any given scripture.

All scripture needs to pass this test
Who, what when where how and why.

Who was God talking to
What was He talking about
When did he say it ...OT?? NT??
Where do we place this truth....OT, NT, Kingdom Age???
How will it come to pass.....has it yet come to pass?
Why is it said at all.

You want to deny very definite scripture about Abraham's Bosom, and the scripture describing this place.(((((Right out of Jesus Mouth))))) which is calling Him a liar! I won't participate in that.

So for me, it is hard to discuss what I believe is fact, with someone who denies those facts.

We will never be in agreement.

So with that, I will excuse myself from a discussion not based on scripture...all of it.


Edited:
In reality Abraham's Bosom does have much to do with Old Covenant and New, because those who were saved under the OT went to a place called Paradise/Abraham's Bosom/ the unsaved went to Sheol (or called hades in the NT. Sheol..OT/Hades NT are one in the same. NOW those in Christ go to be with Christ. OT Saints were brought with Christ to heaven when He rose from the dead.

Added for content, Those not in Christ still go to hades, and Revelation 20:13&14 state very clearly will be cast into the lake of fire.



Love in Christ
Katy-Did
:-)

 2007/12/13 8:51
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Hi everybody, for the purpose of going back to the issue of New and Old covenant, I decided to repost a message to brother Benwilliam. God bless us all...


Hi brother benwilliams,



Thank you Brother for your reply.

I have to say that I rely enjoy exchanging messages with you, I think it is great that we can expose our doctrines differences in love and respect.

If you allow me to comment I have a few things to say about your last message.

Quote:""""Now in regards to the duty of the covenant, I am slightly unsure what you believe."""

In the new covenant we have the promise that God will put His laws in our hearts. That is my duty I have to keep His laws in my heart and in my mind. One can argue laws forever but I will try to explain to you what I believe these laws are.

Everybody that says""I am in the new covenant"" hardly ever or never makes any comments in regard of the laws that God said He would put into our hearts. Why is that?


I will probably repeat some of the things I posted before so please bear with me.
-------------------------------------------------

I believe that the New Covenant has the same structure as the Old Covenant.
The Promise
The Duty
The Sign

I believe that in my past posts we have established what these are.

Now You said:"""""If you believe that there are commandments that we must keep, then you must examine all of what Jesus taught, and not just one or two scriptures, there is another place that deals with the issue of commandments."""""


You are 100% right, We have to read the Scriptures as a whole, One text on its own does not nullify other texts but it has to complement it.

You have given me a text in Matthew 22:36-40.
Where Jesus was asked about the greatest commandments in the law.

Question: what Law where they talking about?

Jesus said that the second greatest commandments was to love your neighbor as yourself. This is what Paul says in regard of how I should love my neighbor.

Romans 13:9-10 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Yes, Paul quoted half of the Ten Commandments and then summed then up in one big Commandment.

Now in regard of the Greatest commandment.

Matthew 22:37-38 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment.


Now I ask you, Was Jesus the first person to say these words or do we have someone saying these very words in the OT?

Here it is, but note that this Statement was made by moses just after rereading the Ten Commandments to Israel.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

How do I do this?

I think the answer is here.

Deuteronomy 6:2-3 "that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 "Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you -- 'a land flowing with milk and honey.'

According to this, they would receive the promise of the covenant.

Now we have the same account in Mark 12:13

But a very interesting thing happened in Luke

I young man come to Jesus and ask Him about Eternal life.


Luke 10:25-26 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

Jesus replied with a question?

26 He said to him, "What is written in the law?

Jesus replies by referring to the Law and He asks the Lawyer.

Question What Law is Jesus talking about?

What is your reading of it?" Jesus said:

and The lawyer gives the exact same answer that Jesus said in the account of Matthew and mark.

Luke 10:27-28 So he answered and said, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' " 28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

So To me, the commandments that Jesus referred in these texts are the very Ten Commandments.

For in another place it was asked Jesus the very same thing, and Then Jesus went on and named six out of the Ten commandment.

Luke 18:18-22 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 20 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' " 21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." 22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."


To my understanding this is the perfect formula for salvation.

To enter eternal life, I must:

Keep His commandments,
Don't have any love for the things of this World.
and Give my life to Him completely, by following Him.

Some people Read this passage and the first thing that they concentrate is the intention of the Ruler. But I invite you to look at Jesus intentions. Whatever the intention of the ruler was, to me it is of no relevance, but what Jesus says is. When Jesus replied He had no other intention than to lead the ruler into eternal life by obeying the commandments of God and asking Him to follow Him.

=================================================
Quote:
""""In John, who is known to be the closest to Jesus, who outlived all the other apostles, we find this exact teaching right here, where Jesus says something very interesting."""""


Jesus Did not give a new commandment, In fact all that He did was to magnify the ones already there.

I will give you an example.

This is how I see it.

The four first commandments of the Ten Commandments, talk about How we should Love God with all our heart, Remember, The greatest commandment?

Some people agree that the three first commandments in fact shows us how to love our God, but the Forth commandment was something solely for the Jew, it is a Jewish thing. I beg to differ, for in many place we see God referring to the fourth commandments the same way that Nehemiah described it.

Nehemiah 9:14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, And commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, By the hand of Moses Your servant.


The other six Commandments are guidance of How we should Love our neighbor. As we have described by Paul in Romans 13.

Now what Jesus did was, He wanted us to look at some of these laws with a magnifying glass.

For instance.

Ten Commandments
Do not commit Adultery.

But Jesus said:
Matthew 5:27-28 " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Again,
Matthew 5:43-44 " You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

But again this teaching was Not Jesus who said it for the first time either, for in the OT we have this.

Proverbs 25:21 If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;

You see, Jesus was talking about something that Solomon Said in regard of our duty with our fellow man. we have not only to love our neighbor which was the second greatest commandment but He wants us to go even further, and love our enemies as well.

And I tell you to love your enemies, to pray for those who persecute you and bless those who curse you, all of these can only be achieved when Christ's love abides in you. And I am not ashamed to admit that I struggle with this sometimes, but everyday with the help of the scriptures and the holy Spirit, I am moving forward and learning to love those who sometimes don't have the best intentions towards me.

What I want you to see is I believe that God established His Holy Laws and they are eternal, Jesus did not come to change or nullify but He came to magnify His Father laws.

=================================================

Quote: """you will find that even under the first covenant, man could not fulfill the duty of the covenant by being perfect according to the law. A man had to have faith to be counted as righteous, that is why Paul uses the example of Abraham as the standard by which salvation is to be judged. Let me quote a little Paul""""


You are 100% correct.

Scripture is very clear in this subject.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

But One cannot Deny that in every act of faith was followed by an act of obedience.


Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Now let me show you this.

Here Paul describes what faith is.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.


a lot of people read my messages and they come back to me asking why do you put your salvation in the law rather than by faith in Jesus?

I answer them that this could not be any further from the truth.

It is because I have faith in Him, because I trust in Him because I love Him that I want to follow His laws, His commandments. Remember?
If you love me, keep my commandments. and this is how his commandments are referred as

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.


Ok, in one place Jesus said: If you love me, keep my commandments but in 1John we have: This is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments.

It could not be any clearer than that. Now Jesus did give us some commandments but does that nullify God's Commandment? Not at all.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

=================================================
Quote:"""""""you will find that even under the first covenant, man could not fulfill the duty of the covenant by being perfect according to the law.""""

I feel I must comment this again.

Brother what you just have said, is exactly what Lucifer preached in Heaven and convinced a third of the Angels into sin.

“”””God is an unfair, unjust and a tyrant God.””””

Listen to what you are saying that God would give us commandments that we could not keep?

Please Read Psalms 19 and have a look of what David said about it.
Also I have the example of a few people that kept God’s law blamelessly.

Luke 1:5-6 here was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

What does it say on verse 6. They were both righteous before God. Were they sinless? No, for we know that there is only one that never sinned, but somehow they were righteous before God.
How do you figure that?

How about Moses?

Deuteronomy 34:10 But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

Was Moses righteous before God?

What about Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel
Were they blameless before God.
Now as I said before these men they were not sinless, but somehow they were considered righteous before God.

Do you want to know about God's commandments, read Psalm 119 Here you will have a better understanding of God's commandments and laws.

by David, who did things that maybe you and I would not consider doing, but after all was said and done God said This about Him.

Acts 13:22 "And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.'


I will quote this again for you

Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
=================================================

You then quoted a text from Romans 4.

I particularly like verse two,

Romans was written because there were Jews preaching to the new coverts that unless they were circumcised in the flesh they could not be saved.

When Paul refers to Justified by works it has nothing to do with the God's Law(Ten Commandments) He is talking about Circumcision, for they believed that they were justified by it, you could not belong to God unless you were circumcised.

The book of Romans is treating the problem of circumcision, nothing more.

Here is the proof.

One cannot live without the law.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law,

For those who live without the any law will perish.

Romans 2:12 and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law.

Again, if you have the law but break it then you will be judged and you will perish as well.

So, in theory was is left out according to Romans 2:12,

Those who don't have the law but obey it.
Those who have the law and obey it.


Paul says:

Romans 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Hang on, what does Paul says about justification by the deeds of the law?

Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Is Paul contradicting Himself?

In one place he says that the doers of the Law will be justified but in another He says that no one will be justified by the law.

Not At all, the law that Paul is talking about in Romans 2 is the law that tells us what sin is.

Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves.

This law cannot be the law of circumcision for Paul clearly said:

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.


Now the law the Paul is talking about in Galatians 2:16 is a different law.

In order to know that all we have to do is to go back to the beginning of the chapter. What is Paul talking about?

Galatians 2:1-4 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage).

What Paul was saying is that no one will be justified by being circumcised, remember that the sign of the covenant with Abraham was circumcision?

So for the Jew they thought that they were right with God because they were circumcised, and we know what Paul tell us.


Romans 2:25-29 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

=================================================

quote:"""What did Abraham do that made him righteous before God? Remember that the law had not yet come, the only law that there was, what Romans 1 talks about how God had revealed what was right by way of the conscience. It says that Abraham "believed" God, and that made him righteous before God."""


You said that the law had not yet come, but one fact remains, Abraham knew about God's laws and commandments. Now how He knew it to me is irrelevant but what is relevant is the fact the He knew.

Genesis 26:4-5 "And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

The blessings of Abraham came because of obedience to God's laws and commandments.

Remember When God said this to Abraham, there was no Jew, so this is the proof that way before the Jews, we are talking quite a few centuries here, God had His laws and commandments pretty much being observed.

Abraham believed but also He obeyed and that was counted as righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.


Abraham again was mentioned when Paul is talking about circumcision.

Romans 4:9-12 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

Again nothing to do with obedience to the law (Ten Commandments) but the law of circumcision.

=================================================

This is the end of the first part of your message, I will reply to the rest of your message in another message.

 2007/12/18 4:30Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Abraham again was mentioned when Paul is talking about circumcision.
Romans 4:9-12 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

Again nothing to do with obedience to the law (Ten Commandments) but the law of circumcision.




Jayyou, Galatians 6, Paul says, Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing, but a **New Creature**.


There is no such thing as the law of Circumcision.

Circumcision was and outward sign, much like Bptism is an outward profession of an inward transformation.


However, Colossians 2 clearly teach about what circumcision really means. It was a sign of teh cutting away of the flesh, just as when we come to Christ, our old man is Crucified with Christ, and that cutting away of our old sinful flesh was nailed to the Cross.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

Galatians 6, Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing, but a New Creation...TRUE Circumcision of the heart.



PS Added for content:

6As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

7Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

[u][b]11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [/b][/u]


14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

21(Touch not; taste not; handle not;

22Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

23Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

[u][b]11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [/b][/u]

 2007/12/20 9:41
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dearest sis Katy-did,

Please allow me to comment of your message.

You quote: """"Jayyou, Galatians 6, Paul says, Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing, but a **New Creature**.


There is no such thing as the law of Circumcision.

=================================================

Dear sis, Please do not take my words out of context, I am by no means preaching circumcision of the flesh. but circumcision of the Heart, which comes through obedience to the righteous requirements of the law

Here it is.

Romans 2:26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?

Romans 2:27-29 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit,

Now you said this.

"""" Jayyou, Galatians 6, Paul says, Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing, but a **New Creature**."""""


I have this one for you to comment, Have a look.

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Any Comments?????


Let me make it very clear to everybody Here, I keep the Ten commandments because I have faith in Jesus and I love Him therefore I keep His commandments, I am tired of people writting back to me saying that I am preaching salvation through the obedience of the law. Remember that without Jesus there is not salvation, it doesn't matter if you are OT OR NT believer. It is only through His blood. The keeping of the law come as a result of my faith and not the the other way around.

=================================================


Quote: """"There is no such thing as the law of Circumcision.""""

Dear sis, call it whatever you want, Law of circumcision, deeds of the law, works of the law.

One fact remains, on the eigth day the child had to be circumcised, remember what happened to Moses because he had not circumcised his children.

Exodus 4:24-26 And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the LORD met him and sought to kill him. 25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses' feet, and said, "Surely you are a husband of blood to me!" 26 So He let him go. Then she said, "You are a husband of blood!" -- because of the circumcision.

Now was it a law? was it a commandment? was it a statute?

Again, call it what you want but

One fact remains, on the eigth day you must circumcised your child. Call it what you want.

=================================================

NOw you also added up this text in Galatians

I will just quote the verses that you put in
bold letters.


You quoted: """"11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; """""""""


Spot on sis, that is precisely the type circumcision that we need, not the one made by hands but the one that is made by God through faith. CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART.

Now, Romans 2 talks about it very clearly, and you know what I have something quite interesting for you to see,


Romans 2:26-29 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


Deuteronomy 10:16 "Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer.


why was Israel called a Stiff-necked people?
for the very reason of disobedience to God's law.


Now I have something very interesting for you to read.

Do you remember when Jesus talked about the first great commandment.


Matthew 22:37-38 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment.




Yes, but look at what Moses said about the first great commandment.


Deuteronomy 30:5-6 "Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. 6 "And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.


Awesome, I can only keep the great first commandment after having circumcision of the heart. Praise the Lord.


and Sis, If you don't know how to circumcise your heart, Romans 2 is there for you to study and learn.


God bless you.......

 2007/12/21 16:29Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Spot on sis, that is precisely the type circumcision that we need, not the one made by hands but the one that is made by God through faith. CIRCUMCISION OF THE HEART.



I agree with you there. I love how Colossians 2 explains circumcision of the heart.

Also you will see in 2 Corinthians 3 exactly that circumcision of the heart.

The New Covenant promise now has the Law written in our heart, and has taken out the stony heart, or in other words the law written in stone.

The New Covenant promise of the Holy Spirit, " the Spirit of the Life of Christ who set us free from the Law of sin and death. 2 Corinthians 3 perfectly explains what happens to one who has had this circumcision of heart. They are no longer under the Law of Moses......read that Chapter.

We are now under the Law of Liberty, the Law of Love, being changed from Glory to Glory even by the Spirit of the Lord.....no law of Moses can do that, and you can't do it either...this is the Lord's doing.


Quote:
One fact remains, on the eighth day you must circumcised your child. Call it what you want.



I'm sorry, but if you read Acts, life now under Grace requires no such circumcision. ( However it is a good idea health wise)

Jayyou, the 8th day is the day Jesus Rose from the dead. The first day after the 7th.

You sound like you may be SDA, still keeping law, etc, etc.

But I believe, as Paul, this:

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live Yet not I, but Christ lives in me,

[u][b]and the life that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of Christ[/b][/u] who lived me and gave himself for me.

[u][b]I do not make void the Grace of God, for if righteousness comes by keeping the Law, then Christ died in vain.[/b][/u]

Paul ends the Chapter, Circumcision means nothing, and uncircumcision means nothing, but a New Creature.

That New Creature comes not by Law, but by Faith, and that New Creature does not go back to live under the rudimentary elements of the Law, but by a ****New and Living way.....Hebrews 10**** we live by the The Law of the Life of Christ indwelling.

The Mystery of the New Covenant/Testament is

Christ in you.....the Hope of Glory.

Christ in you has more power and Glory then any laws written in stone.

The Just shall live by faith, by the Faith of Christ...the risen Christ....the 8th day Christ, the one who rose from the dead Christ, who's very life governs our lives. We have received the Righteousness of Christ, and His alone.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did :-)

 2007/12/22 9:01
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear Sis Katy-did,

You made an statement in a previously message,
2007/12/20 14:41

Quote:"""" There is no such thing as the law of Circumcision.

Circumcision was and outward sign, much like Bptism is an outward profession of an inward transformation.""""""


I reply to you this,

My Quote"""" Quote: """"There is no such thing as the law of Circumcision.""""

Dear sis, call it whatever you want, Law of circumcision, deeds of the law, works of the law.

One fact remains, on the eigth day the child had to be circumcised, remember what happened to Moses because he had not circumcised his children.

Exodus 4:24-26 And it came to pass on the way, at the encampment, that the LORD met him and sought to kill him. 25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses' feet, and said, "Surely you are a husband of blood to me!" 26 So He let him go. Then she said, "You are a husband of blood!" -- because of the circumcision.

Now was it a law? was it a commandment? was it a statute?

Again, call it what you want but

One fact remains, on the eigth day you must circumcised your child. Call it what you want.""""

My point Here was the fact that there was a law that required the new born Jew to be circumcised on the eigth day.

Note that the first time I said in my message

"""One fact remains,""

I used the verb in the past, and I admit that I made a mistake in the verb tense on the second time, but Come on, inspite of all that I have written here you must have realized that I meant the Child had to be circumcised on the eight day.

But you wrote back to me as it I were preaching circumcision of the flesh.

Quote: 2""I'm sorry, but if you read Acts, life now under Grace requires no such circumcision. ( However it is a good idea health wise)"""

Come on, are you mocking me?

I said what I said because you said that there is no such a thing as the law of circumcision, when if fact there was one.


Then you went on and said this.

Quote: """You sound like you may be SDA, still keeping law, etc, etc."""

Dear sis, Not only I sound like an SDA but I act like one as well.

Now would I be wrong to assume that you said that the SDA preaches Circumcision of the flesh?

Now I keep saying to you that when Paul said that we are under grace and not under the law, He meant the law of circumcion.

Now I have quoted you Romans 2 in regard of circumcion of the flesh and so far I heard nothing.

Here it is again.....

Romans 2:25-29 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

What is this righteous requirements of the law?


Please pay attention on verse 27 we have three thing that I would like you to consider.

01- uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law.

02- judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision,

03- are a transgressor of the law?

number 02-03 talks about three things
(written code, circumcision and Law)

Any comments?????

=================================================

Dear sis, I said before,

Give me your texts about Justified by the law, deeds of the law etc..

And I will prove to you that Paul is talking about circumcision of the flesh.

and by the way, What about this one here that you did not comment either..

You talked that circumcision avails nothing but a new creature, well Paul said that what really matter is this.....

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.


You are most definetely right, Christ is in me and He is the One the empowers me and lead me to obbey God's commandments.


Now you said something very interesting here.

Quote: """"The Just shall live by faith, by the Faith of Christ...the risen Christ....the 8th day Christ, the one who rose from the dead Christ"""

You said the 8th day christ. Now what 8th is that? What do you mean 8th day?

I know that Christ was not found in the tomb on the first day of the week. Also that He would die and raise on the third day, but 8th day? 8th day of what.

8th day means 8 days after the beginning or ending of something. Now what happened 8 days prior to His resurrection that you are talking about?

I am sorry sis but you cannot interchange 1th and 8th as you please, it doesn't work like that...


Now give me the text that you claim set you free from the law and I will show you that it is talking about circumcision. bring it on sis......







 2007/12/22 18:12Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Hi everybody, for the purpose of going back to the issue of New and Old covenant, I decided to repost a message to brother Benwilliam. God bless us all...


Hi brother benwilliams,



Thank you Brother for your reply.

I have to say that I rely enjoy exchanging messages with you, I think it is great that we can expose our doctrines differences in love and respect.

If you allow me to comment I have a few things to say about your last message.

Quote:""""Now in regards to the duty of the covenant, I am slightly unsure what you believe."""

In the new covenant we have the promise that God will put His laws in our hearts. That is my duty I have to keep His laws in my heart and in my mind. One can argue laws forever but I will try to explain to you what I believe these laws are.

Everybody that says""I am in the new covenant"" hardly ever or never makes any comments in regard of the laws that God said He would put into our hearts. Why is that?


I will probably repeat some of the things I posted before so please bear with me.
-------------------------------------------------

I believe that the New Covenant has the same structure as the Old Covenant.
The Promise
The Duty
The Sign

I believe that in my past posts we have established what these are.

Now You said:"""""If you believe that there are commandments that we must keep, then you must examine all of what Jesus taught, and not just one or two scriptures, there is another place that deals with the issue of commandments."""""


You are 100% right, We have to read the Scriptures as a whole, One text on its own does not nullify other texts but it has to complement it.

You have given me a text in Matthew 22:36-40.
Where Jesus was asked about the greatest commandments in the law.

Question: what Law where they talking about?

Jesus said that the second greatest commandments was to love your neighbor as yourself. This is what Paul says in regard of how I should love my neighbor.

Romans 13:9-10 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Yes, Paul quoted half of the Ten Commandments and then summed then up in one big Commandment.

Now in regard of the Greatest commandment.

Matthew 22:37-38 Jesus said to him, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the first and great commandment.


Now I ask you, Was Jesus the first person to say these words or do we have someone saying these very words in the OT?

Here it is, but note that this Statement was made by moses just after rereading the Ten Commandments to Israel.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one! 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

How do I do this?

I think the answer is here.

Deuteronomy 6:2-3 "that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged. 3 "Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you -- 'a land flowing with milk and honey.'

According to this, they would receive the promise of the covenant.

Now we have the same account in Mark 12:13

But a very interesting thing happened in Luke

I young man come to Jesus and ask Him about Eternal life.


Luke 10:25-26 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

Jesus replied with a question?

26 He said to him, "What is written in the law?

Jesus replies by referring to the Law and He asks the Lawyer.

Question What Law is Jesus talking about?

What is your reading of it?" Jesus said:

and The lawyer gives the exact same answer that Jesus said in the account of Matthew and mark.

Luke 10:27-28 So he answered and said, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' " 28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

So To me, the commandments that Jesus referred in these texts are the very Ten Commandments.

For in another place it was asked Jesus the very same thing, and Then Jesus went on and named six out of the Ten commandment.

Luke 18:18-22 Now a certain ruler asked Him, saying, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 19 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 20 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' " 21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." 22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."


To my understanding this is the perfect formula for salvation.

To enter eternal life, I must:

Keep His commandments,
Don't have any love for the things of this World.
and Give my life to Him completely, by following Him.

Some people Read this passage and the first thing that they concentrate is the intention of the Ruler. But I invite you to look at Jesus intentions. Whatever the intention of the ruler was, to me it is of no relevance, but what Jesus says is. When Jesus replied He had no other intention than to lead the ruler into eternal life by obeying the commandments of God and asking Him to follow Him.

=================================================
Quote:
""""In John, who is known to be the closest to Jesus, who outlived all the other apostles, we find this exact teaching right here, where Jesus says something very interesting."""""


Jesus Did not give a new commandment, In fact all that He did was to magnify the ones already there.

I will give you an example.

This is how I see it.

The four first commandments of the Ten Commandments, talk about How we should Love God with all our heart, Remember, The greatest commandment?

Some people agree that the three first commandments in fact shows us how to love our God, but the Forth commandment was something solely for the Jew, it is a Jewish thing. I beg to differ, for in many places we see God referring to the fourth commandments the same way that Nehemiah described it.

Nehemiah 9:14 You made known to them Your holy Sabbath, And commanded them precepts, statutes and laws, By the hand of Moses Your servant.


The other six Commandments are guidance of How we should Love our neighbor. As we have described by Paul in Romans 13.

Now what Jesus did was, He wanted us to look at some of these laws with a magnifying glass.

For instance.

Ten Commandments
Do not commit Adultery.

But Jesus said:
Matthew 5:27-28 " You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Again,
Matthew 5:43-44 " You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

But again this teaching was Not Jesus who said it for the first time either, for in the OT we have this.

Proverbs 25:21 If your enemy is hungry, give him bread to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink;

You see, Jesus was talking about something that Solomon Said in regard of our duty with our fellow man. we have not only to love our neighbor which was the second greatest commandment but He wants us to go even further, and love our enemies as well.

And I tell you to love your enemies, to pray for those who persecute you and bless those who curse you, all of these can only be achieved when Christ's love abides in you. And I am not ashamed to admit that I struggle with this sometimes, but everyday with the help of the scriptures and the holy Spirit, I am moving forward and learning to love those who sometimes don't have the best intentions towards me.

What I want you to see is I believe that God established His Holy Laws and they are eternal, Jesus did not come to change or nullify but He came to magnify His Father laws.

=================================================

Quote: """you will find that even under the first covenant, man could not fulfill the duty of the covenant by being perfect according to the law. A man had to have faith to be counted as righteous, that is why Paul uses the example of Abraham as the standard by which salvation is to be judged. Let me quote a little Paul""""


You are 100% correct.

Scripture is very clear in this subject.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

But One cannot Deny that in every act of faith was followed by an act of obedience.


Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Now let me show you this.

Here Paul describes what faith is.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.


a lot of people read my messages and they come back to me asking why do you put your salvation in the law rather than by faith in Jesus?

I answer them that this could not be any further from the truth.

It is because I have faith in Him, because I trust in Him because I love Him that I want to follow His laws, His commandments. Remember?
If you love me, keep my commandments. and this is how his commandments are referred as

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.


Ok, in one place Jesus said: If you love me, keep my commandments but in 1John we have: This is the love of God, that we keep His Commandments.

It could not be any clearer than that. Now Jesus did give us some commandments but does that nullify God's Commandments? Not at all.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

=================================================
Quote:"""""""you will find that even under the first covenant, man could not fulfill the duty of the covenant by being perfect according to the law.""""

I feel I must comment this again.

Brother what you just have said, is exactly what Lucifer preached in Heaven and convinced a third of the Angels into sin.

“”””God is an unfair, unjust and a tyrant God.””””

Listen to what you are saying that God would give us commandments that we could not keep?

Please Read Psalms 19 and have a look of what David said about it.
Also I have the example of a few people that kept God’s law blamelessly.

Luke 1:5-6 here was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

What does it say on verse 6. They were both righteous before God. Were they sinless? No, for we know that there is only one that never sinned, but somehow they were righteous before God.
How do you figure that?

How about Moses?

Deuteronomy 34:10 But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

Was Moses righteous before God?

What about Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel
Were they blameless before God.
Now as I said before these men they were not sinless, but somehow they were considered righteous before God.

Do you want to know about God's commandments, read Psalm 119 Here you will have a better understanding of God's commandments and laws.

by David, who did things that maybe you and I would not consider doing, but after all was said and done God said This about Him.

Acts 13:22 "And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.'


I will quote this again for you

Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
=================================================

You then quoted a text from Romans 4.

I particularly like verse two,

Romans was written because there were Jews preaching to the new coverts that unless they were circumcised in the flesh they could not be saved.

When Paul refers to Justified by works it has nothing to do with the God's Law(Ten Commandments) He is talking about Circumcision, for they believed that they were justified by it, you could not belong to God unless you were circumcised.

The book of Romans is treating the problem of circumcision, nothing more.

Here is the proof.

One cannot live without the law.

Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law,

For those who live without the any law will perish.

Romans 2:12 and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law.

Again, if you have the law but break it then you will be judged and you will perish as well.

So, in theory was is left out according to Romans 2:12,

Those who don't have the law but obey it.
Those who have the law and obey it.


Paul says:

Romans 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Hang on, what does Paul says about justification by the deeds of the law?

Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Is Paul contradicting Himself?

In one place he says that the doers of the Law will be justified but in another He says that no one will be justified by the law.

Not At all, the law that Paul is talking about in Romans 2 is the law that tells us what sin is.

Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves.

This law cannot be the law of circumcision for Paul clearly said:

1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.


Now the law the Paul is talking about in Galatians 2:16 is a different law.

In order to know that all we have to do is to go back to the beginning of the chapter. What is Paul talking about?

Galatians 2:1-4 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage).

What Paul was saying is that no one will be justified by being circumcised, remember that the sign of the covenant with Abraham was circumcision?

So for the Jew they thought that they were right with God because they were circumcised, and we know what Paul tell us.


Romans 2:25-29 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

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quote:"""What did Abraham do that made him righteous before God? Remember that the law had not yet come, the only law that there was, what Romans 1 talks about how God had revealed what was right by way of the conscience. It says that Abraham "believed" God, and that made him righteous before God."""


You said that the law had not yet come, but one fact remains, Abraham knew about God's laws and commandments. Now how He knew it to me is irrelevant but what is relevant is the fact the He knew.

Genesis 26:4-5 "And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

The blessings of Abraham came because of obedience to God's laws and commandments.

Remember When God said this to Abraham, there was no Jew, so this is the proof that way before the Jews, we are talking quite a few centuries here, God had His laws and commandments pretty much being observed.

Abraham believed but also He obeyed and that was counted as righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.


Abraham again was mentioned when Paul is talking about circumcision.

Romans 4:9-12 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

Again nothing to do with obedience to the law (Ten Commandments) but the law of circumcision.

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This is the end of the first part of your message, I will reply to the rest of your message in another message.

 2008/1/25 7:19Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear brother benwilliams,

we were discussing Old and New covenant when we kind of got side tracked. I would love to see your comments on this message.

God bless you.....

 2008/1/25 7:21Profile





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