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 Re: Covenant



Quote:
through khag shavuot the giving of the Law on Mount Sinai, because, according to Exodus 19:1, this event took place on the fiftieth day after the departure from Egypt.

Acts 1
1 The former account I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 until the day in which He was taken up, after He through the Holy Spirit had given commandments to the apostles whom He had chosen,
3 to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, [u]being seen by them during [b]forty days[/b][/u] and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.
4 And being assembled together with [i]them,[/i] He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, "which," [i]He said,[/i] "you have heard from Me;
5 "for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."



I've heard that Pentecost was ten days after the Ascension but I can't find a verse for it. Help?

 2007/11/29 11:50









 Re:


Dorcas 40+10 =50 days.

50 days from the day Jesus rose from the dead.

This is fun huh?

Love in Christ
Katy-Did :-)

PS: added
Pentecost is also the Greek name for Jewish Feast of Weeks, falling on the 50th day of Passover. It was during the Feast of Weeks that the first fruits of the grain harvest were presented (see Deuteronomy 16:9).

 2007/11/29 12:03









 Re: Covenant



Jayyou asked

Quote:
HOW I, BEING A GENTILE, INCLUDE MYSELF IN THIS NEW COVENANT?

I would like to know.

The promise of the New Covenant
the Duty of the new covenant
and the sign.

Anybody....

I believe my post at the top of p2 addresses your questions as to how the New Covenant is available to all, and is not dependent on one's birth ethnicity, the keeping of an external set of rules, or on any kind of work. Resting in Christ is the key - the eternal sabbath of the believer.

The [u]promise[/u] of the New Covenant is the Spirit, by which we obtain relationship with Father in heaven through Jesus Christ His Son.

The [u]duty[/u] of the New Covenant is to enter the rest of faith (Heb 3:12 and 4:10, 11) by repenting and believing from your heart.

The [u]sign[/u] of the New Covenant is abiding in the Vine (Christ) (John 15), for the bearing of fruit unto holiness - love, joy, peace, longsuffering, goodness, gentleness, meekness, faith, temperance - against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22).

The New Covenant Promise of the Spirit -

Galatians 3
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed [i]is[/i] everyone who hangs on a tree"),
14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


The duty and the sign are tied up together in circumcision of the heart signifying an end to unbelief, and an end to sinful practices.

Romans 2
25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?
27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, [i]even[/i] with [i]your[/i] written [i]code[/i] and circumcision, [i]are[/i] a transgressor of the law?
28 For he is not a Jew who [i]is one[/i] outwardly, nor [i]is[/i] circumcision that which [i]is[/i] outward in the flesh;
29 but [i]he is[/i] a Jew who [i]is one[/i] inwardly; and circumcision [i]is that[/i] of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise [i]is[/i] not from men but from God.


Romans 6 - the importance of changing from the service of sin (the law), to the service of righteousness (grace through faith).


 2007/11/29 19:48
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear brother dorcas,

Quote""" Now, the New Covenant is different, because it was made between the Father and the Son. """"

Dear brother, where did you get this statement from.

This is what my bible says:
Hebrews 8:8-10 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Unless I am very mistaken, It clearly says here that the new covenant will be between God, israel and the house of Judah.

Where did you get this statement from, would love to see the texts to support your note.

 2007/12/2 12:15Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

brother dorcas,

I asked:

What is the promise of the new covenant?

You answered

The promise of the New Covenant is the Spirit, by which we obtain relationship with Father in heaven through Jesus Christ His Son.

How do you back this up in scriptures?


=================================================

the other question was:

the duty of the new covenant?

Your answer:

The duty of the New Covenant is to enter the rest of faith (Heb 3:12 and 4:10, 11) by repenting and believing from your heart.


I read the text that you gave and It does say that if we want to enter God's rest we have to stop our work like God did on the seventh day.

However, what is your logic to link this text to the new covenant duty?

=================================================

The third question was, the sign.

Which to the old covenant was circumcision, and I also believe that to the new covenant is also circumcision, but circumcision of the heart.


You answered:

The sign of the New Covenant is abiding in the Vine (Christ) (John 15), for the bearing of fruit unto holiness - love, joy, peace, longsuffering, goodness, gentleness, meekness, faith, temperance - against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22).


You have listed the fruit of the spirit.

Galatians 5:24-25 4 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

We who live by the spirit, will produce the fruit os the spirit. I don't understand how the fruit of the spirit is the sign of the new covenant


Then you mentioned the circumcision of the heart,
well here you were spot on.
I believe that the circumcision of the heart is the sign of the new covenant.

then you gave this text, which talks about how one accomplish circumcision of the heart.


25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?
27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.


Questions:

How does the circumcised is considered uncircumcised?

answer is on verse 25

How does the uncircumcised is declared cirucumcised?

answer is on verse 26


This is the text the talks about new covenant.

Hebrews 8:8-10 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

I don't know about you brother, but I can find all the answers right here in this text.

Promise,
duty,
and sign,







 2007/12/2 13:34Profile









 Re: Covenant


Dear jayyou,

You said

Quote:
I don't know about you brother, but I can find all the answers right here in this text.

If you already have all the answers which satisfy you, why did you ask the question?


It seems to me that if you lay awake at night and contemplate how my answers might be connected with yours through Christ, you will have no difficulty in understanding my answers.

In a nutshell, 'the law', excercised outwardly, produced God-like [i]behaviour[/i] but not God-like heart. This is what it is to be a Jew.

But to be [u]a Jew inwardly[/u], it is necessary to think like God - that is, to have the mind of Christ - which is why [b]believers[/b] must abide in the Vine to bear the fruit of the Spirit.

If you want to understand the Covenant between the Father and the Son, you should study all the words which Jesus spoke directly to His Father (His prayers) all the accounts He gives of how His Father speaks to Him and how that affects what He does, all the things Jesus [u]says[/u] to His Father, and all the things the Father says to the Son in the hearing of the disciples.

In other words, please ask the Holy Spirit to interpret the meaning of these communications between the Father and the Son, to your understanding.


Lastly, Jesus promised those who waited in Jerusalem would be endued with power from on high when they received the promise of the Father. This is as much the promise of knowing God as their Father (new birth) as the promise of an anointing under God to demonstrate His life through the gifts of the Spirit in operation. This was [u]the[/u] blessing of Abraham, according to Paul in Gal 3:14. Remember, the first Christians were all Jewish.

 2007/12/2 14:08
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear Dorcas,

Quote: """If you already have all the answers which satisfy you, why did you ask the question?

It seems to me that if you lay awake at night and contemplate how my answers might be connected with yours through Christ, you will have no difficulty in understanding my answers."""

I am sorry that my questions annoyed you, no intention intended.

I believe that this is a place for us to discuss scriptures, but I also believe that if one is going to discuss something, one is expected to point out and validate your points in Scripture.

Am I in the wrong to ask you to validate your points?

Say it, show it, and prove it.


Just one more thing.

"""""It seems to me that if you lay awake at night and contemplate how my answers might be connected with yours """""

Are we having a bit of an ego trip here?

I lay awake contemplating about your answers, come on, nobody's answers is particularly more or less important to me, as long as you can validate with scriptures.


Since you said all you have said I reserve the right to comment on it, but this is it, I will not go down this road of silly arguments.

This is what you said:

The promise of the new covenant was the Holy Spirit. Please show us.

The Duty is to enter the Rest By Faith.
Please show us.

Needless to say that the part os circumcision of the heart you got spot on.

How does the circumcised is considered uncircumcised?


How does the uncircumcised is declared cirucumcised?


Are these anfair questions?

And Please let's talk about New and Old Covenant, let's leave personal things out of it.

 2007/12/3 5:25Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Hey jay, sorry I didn't see your response here, I think I understand better what you are asking, I wasn't sure how deep to go, or how much scripture you wanted, but I will do my best to answer it clearly, and with scripture.


jayyou wrote:

Quote:
Now Here comes the big Problem.


HOW I, BEING A GENTILE, INCLUDE MYSELF IN THIS NEW COVENANT?

I would like to know.

The promise of the New Covenant
the Duty of the new covenant
and the sign.

Anybody....



So I will start with the promise of the new covenant.


[b][color=FF0000]Romans 11:26-27

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.[/color][/b]

Here Paul references Psalm 14:7

But the promise of the covenant is that God will make a person holy, and blameless.

Now, there are many other things that come along with this covenant, Jesus promises that you will never die, not physically but spiritually. But these are additional things that go along with the covenant, so I won't go into those unless you want me to. I will try to stick to topic.

First, the purpose of both covenants was to reach what is known to the Jews as "paradise" or to most everyone else as "heaven". But to do so, a man had to be cleansed of all sin, he had to be righteous in God's eyes or he could not be in the presence of God.

So in the new covenant, it's promise is that God will take away the sin of the people.
-------------------------------------------------

Now moving to what the duty of the new covenant is.


[b][color=FF0000]Acts 16:29-31

29Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.[/color][/b]

Now just for a help, the book of acts is full of explanations and examples of how both Jews and gentiles partook of the covenant, and what they had to do to partake of it.

Here a man asks the disciples "what must I do to be saved?", in essence, "how can I partake of the covenant, what must I do", the duty.

The disciples response to the man is that he must believe on the Lord Jesus.

[b][color=FF0000]Romans 10:9-10[/color][/b]

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Here in the book of Romans, Paul explains it a little clearer, saying that a man must confess that Jesus is Lord, believe that He was raised from the dead, that you can partake of the covenant.

[b][color=FF0000]Acts 2:38

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.[/color][/b]

Here in acts we have another example of the duty when peter tells them to "repent and be baptized", (baptism in Jewish culture was symbolic of a change of beliefs and repentance).

These are just a few examples, but there are many more throughout acts and romans that expound on these simple things.

The duty of the new covenant is that you repent, and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord, and that you confess it with your mouth. Baptism is not a requirement, as there are a number of examples where people were saved without it, or died before there was a chance for baptism.
-------------------------------------------------

On to the sign of the new covenant.

The sign of the new covenant is the Holy Spirit, this can be shown in Acts.


[b][color=FF0000]Acts 11:1-18

1And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

2And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

3Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

4But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,

5I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

6Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

7And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

8But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

9But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

10And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

11And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.

12And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:

13And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.[/color][/b]

We can see from this account that God gave the sign to the disciples when they believed, and He gave the sign to the gentiles when they believed. In the new covenant, God provided the sign.

So the sign is the Holy Spirit.

Now having said that, Paul counsels Christians to be circumcised in their heart, meaning to make themselves holy and set apart for the purpose of God.

I hope I did a better job with this post, then the last one, there is so much information on all of these topics, that it is difficult to condense them sometimes.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/12/3 13:59Profile
jayyou
Member



Joined: 2007/10/19
Posts: 136


 Re:

Dear brother Benwilliams,

Thank you again for your reply.

I just have a few comments if you allow me.

The Promise

Quote:"""First, the purpose of both covenants was to reach what is known to the Jews as "paradise" or to most everyone else as "heaven". But to do so, a man had to be cleansed of all sin, he had to be righteous in God's eyes or he could not be in the presence of God."""""

One could look at it this way. However, I believe that the purpose of the covenant on God’s point of view was to have a holy people, because He is Holy, so I believe that the purpose of the covenant was to have a people that God would call them His people and He would be their God. Not about what they could get out of it, but the fact that They would have the Almighty God, as their God. For some of them yes, one could assume that it was about what they could get out of it, but I believe that for some was just the fact that they would be able to call the Awesome God, their God.

So I believe that on the Promise side of the new covenant we pretty much agree.


The duty of the Covenant

Quote: “””””Here a man asks the disciples "what must I do to be saved?", in essence, "how can I partake of the covenant,
what must I do", the duty.

The disciples response to the man is that he must believe on the Lord Jesus. “””””

Ok,

Now, I have this quote from Jesus.

Matthew 19:17-21 But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, " 'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " 20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Here we have Jesus answering the same question that you mentioned in Acts 16:29-31.

He said, Matthew 19:17 But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Now When God told us about the new covenant He said this:

Hebrews 8:8-10 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Now, Here we have God saying that He will put His Laws in our herts.

Question:
What laws do we call God’s law?
What Laws were written with His own finger?

Then we have Jesus saying that if we want to enter into eternal life we have to keep the commandments.

Question:
The commandments that He mentioned are part of what set of commandments?
Are they the same commandments written by the hand of God?

This is what I believe the duty of the New Covenant is.

If God promised to put His laws in my heart, I should assume that I have to keep them. Jesus said I should keep them.
So to me this is the Duty of The new covenant.

Now please read this,

Look what the David said about God’s covenants.
Psalm 78:10-11 They did not keep the covenant of God; They refused to walk in His law, 11 And forgot His works And His wonders that He had shown them.

Just like the Old Covenant there is a condition, and I believe that the same condition applies to the New covenant.

Psalm 89:28-34 And My covenant shall stand firm with him. 29 His seed also I will make to endure forever, And his throne as the days of heaven. 30 "If his sons forsake My law And do not walk in My judgments, 31 If they break My statutes And do not keep My commandments, 32 Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, And their iniquity with stripes. 33 Nevertheless My loving kindness I will not utterly take from him, Nor allow My faithfulness to fail. 34 My covenant I will not break, Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.


Psalm 103:17-19 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting On those who fear Him, And His righteousness to children's children, 18 To such as keep His covenant, And to those who remember His commandments to do them. 19 The LORD has established His throne in heaven, And His kingdom rules over all.

Now look what Daniel has to say about covenants.

Daniel 9:4 And I prayed to the LORD my God, and made confession, and said, "O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments,


As we can see, Not only God promised to put His laws in our heart but He has shown us that there is a condition to His covenants and as we can see His laws are always present.
=========================================

Now you mentioned
Romans 10:9-10

Yes we have to believe in Him, confess our sins and all that you have said, otherwise we do even have a part with God. We cannot come to God unless we come through Jesus, I just don’t see the relation to faith in Jesus in regard of Hebrews 8:8-10?

I believe that the new covenant with its promises and duties are all included in this passage.

Then you mentioned
Acts 2:38

I read the text and it clearly says:

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins

Very clear to me, Peter says:

EVERY ONE OF YOU,

Then in your comment you said:

Quote: “””Baptism is not a requirement, as there are a number of examples where people were saved without it, or died before there was a chance for baptism.””””

Now, you totally contradicted Peter’s statement.

We have Peter saying EVERY ONE OF YOU, and then you come and say:
Not really everyone, maybe SOME?

I believe that God is a God of allowances, and He will judge us case by case taking into account our circumstances, but to say that baptism is not a requirement, I believe that this is not in the bible and forgive for saying this, but this is man interpretation of the Scriptures. Even Jesus was baptized, water and spirit, and I believe we should follow His example.



Let’s move on to the Sign of the New Covenant.

As many of you said, the sign and the duty is somehow entwined.

We know that in the Old Covenant the sign was Circumcision of the flesh.

I believe that the Sign of the new covenant is also Circumcision, but circumcision of the Heart.

But How do I, a Gentile, Can circumcise myself without going back to the bondage of the law of ceremonies.

Here we have it.
Romans 2:26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?

Let’s see, again we have the law brought back to us.

So it says here that, if I keep the righteous requirement of the law, it will be counted for me as Circumcision.

and Paul goes on saying:

Romans 2:27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?

Again Paul is talking about the Law. I believe this Law is the same law the God promised to put in our hearts. And if we keep and fulfill this law, then I do have the sign of the new covenant. Circumcision of the Heart.


So, How I, a Gentile include myself into The New Covenant?

Romans 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

By faith in Jesus, and Resting my salvation in Him, I became part of His people. I now have part with God’s people and His love abides within me.

Romans 2:14-16 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Then God will put His laws in my heart and by me keeping them and fulfilling them with the help of the Holy Spirit, I just had circumcision of the Heart and therefore I became a Jew inwardly.

Romans 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

So, Now I can include myself in the covenant that was between God , Israel and the House of Judah.

 2007/12/4 8:17Profile









 Re: Covenant


Jayyou said

Quote:
I am sorry that my questions annoyed you, no intention intended

Dear jayyou,

I'm sorry too. However, I don't think it's too much to ask you to go on to further Bible study around the topics suggested.

For your help, the Bible search facility I use, (although there are others) is linked from the foot of this page:

[url=www.olivetree.com]www.olivetree.com[/url]

 2007/12/5 13:20





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