I was in a church and this issue was brought up in church. I like Art Katz and are from the former persuasion that christians. It caused a big stir as half the church was of one opinion and the other side of the church the other opinion. The pastor believes in Pre-Trib and I believe in Post or Mid Trib. These are a few versesIsa 2:12 - Show Context For the day of the Lord of hosts Shall come upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up-- And it shall be brought low--Isa 13:6 - Show Context Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.Isa 13:9 - Show Context Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.Isa 34:8 - Show Context For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.Isa 58:13 - Show Context "If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the Lord honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words,Jer 46:10 - Show Context For this is the day of the Lord God of hosts, A day of vengeance, That He may avenge Himself on His adversaries. The sword shall devour; It shall be satiated and made drunk with their blood; For the Lord God of hosts has a sacrifice In the north country by the River Euphrates.La 2:22 - Show Context "You have invited as to a feast day The terrors that surround me. In the day of the Lord's anger There was no refugee or survivor. Those whom I have borne and brought up My enemies have destroyed."Eze 13:5 - Show Context You have not gone up into the gaps to build a wall for the house of Israel to stand in battle on the day of the Lord.Eze 30:3 - Show Context For the day is near, Even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.Joe 1:15 - Show Context Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is at hand; It shall come as destruction from the Almighty.Joe 2:1 - Show Context Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the Lord is coming, For it is at hand:Joe 2:11 - Show Context The Lord gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong is the One who executes His word. For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; Who can endure it?Joe 2:31 - Show Context The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.Joe 3:14 - Show Context Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.Am 5:18 - Show Context Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord! For what good is the day of the Lord to you? It will be darkness, and not light.Am 5:20 - Show Context Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light? Is it not very dark, with no brightness in it?Ob 1:15 - Show Context "For the day of the Lord upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.Zep 1:7 - Show Context Be silent in the presence of the Lord God; For the day of the Lord is at hand, For the Lord has prepared a sacrifice; He has invited His guests.Zep 1:8 - Show Context "And it shall be, In the day of the Lord's sacrifice, That I will punish the princes and the king's children, And all such as are clothed with foreign apparel.Zep 1:14 - Show Context The great day of the Lord is near; It is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the Lord is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out.Zep 1:18 - Show Context Neither their silver nor their gold Shall be able to deliver them In the day of the Lord's wrath; But the whole land shall be devoured By the fire of His jealousy, For He will make speedy riddance Of all those who dwell in the land.Zep 2:2 - Show Context Before the decree is issued, Or the day passes like chaff, Before the Lord's fierce anger comes upon you, Before the day of the Lord's anger comes upon you!Zep 2:3 - Show Context Seek the Lord, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the Lord's anger.Zec 14:1 - Show Context Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.Mal 4:5 - Show Context Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.Ac 2:20 - Show Context The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.1Co 5:5 - Show Context deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.2Co 1:14 - Show Context (as also you have understood us in part), that we are your boast as you also are ours, in the day of the Lord Jesus.1Th 5:2 - Show Context For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.2Pe 3:10 - Show Context But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.The Day of the Lord is used as to represent Judgement Day in the Old Testament.1Th 4:17 - Show Context Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.The is a very complex issue and Art katz likens it . In the west we tend to avert the idea of suffering such as going through the great tribulation. I have also been listening to Pastor Leggs messages and how he says that Revelation is written to the persecuted church. I want to know what more people think
.Have you heard [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=528]David Pawson's Revelation Series[/url]?It's excellent. He believes that we are going all the way through, from what I've heard so far. Give them a listen and see for yourself. He offers very valid points and Scriptures.
Deltadom,You bring out some good points here. Thanks for posting this.Jordan
This document is offered to clearly and biblically expose the error of the "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" teaching. The two main scriptures that tell of the "Rapture" (1Th. 4:16-17 and 1Cor: 15:52) clearly and distinctly declare the timing of the, gathering, or calling up of faithful Christ followers that are alive at that time.1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The last statement in 1Th: 4-16 states "and the dead in Christ shall rise first" (Resurrection of the just) 1Th: 4-17 begins with the statement "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up.." ( The Rapture)1 Cor: 15-52 states first " and the dead shall be raised incorruptible" (Resurrection of the just) and continues to say "and we will be changed" (Rapture)Absolutely clear in these scriptures is the FACT that a resurrection of the just, (Luke 14:14) proceeds the Rapture, or the Catching up of the Church/Body of Christ. The first general, resurrection of the Saints is recorded in Rev:20:4-5.Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (emphasis mine)Clearly included in this resurrection are those that; "and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;" This first resurrection includes those Saints that were beheaded for their witness by the "beast" of Rev. 13., an event that happens DURING the tribulation period, thus a Pre-Tribulation "rapture" of the Church is not supported by scripture. It is vital that teachers of the Word have a clear, and correct presentation, as they will be held to a higher standard by our Lord.2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Blessings Greg
Personally, I understand the scripture to teach there will be a time of tribulation for the Believers. I will not go into quoting scriptures to support this...you all have done this.I would like to make one or two observations: some people get so bent out of shape over this issue, so bad it has even split churches, I am told. To me this makes no sense because man has absolutely no control over these events and how they will happen. Bible prophecy is one fascinating study, it provides one with lots of encouragement and is so edifying which is likely why the devil likes to use it to bring dissension to the brotherhood because of how it is understood. So whether you are pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, or pan-trib (everything will pan out ok) let us not forget all of these events are controlled by the Father and the least we can do is be prepared for this event. Brother, I hope you will find the answers you are looking for. I know my post does not contribute to this quest for info, but it is something that lays dear to my heart.BTW, brother, have you ever considered teaching this to children? Using the Inductive Method of Bible Study, teach them Revelation! Hey! It is interesting! I did that to juniors and it was very insightful! Guess where we came out at using this method??!! and it might help clarify your understanding on this issue. :-) Blessings,ginnyrose
I would like to make one or two observations: some people get so bent out of shape over this issue, so bad it has even split churches, I am told. To me this makes no sense because man has absolutely no control over these events and how they will happen. Bible prophecy is one fascinating study, it provides one with lots of encouragement and is so edifying which is likely why the devil likes to use it to bring dissension to the brotherhood because of how it is understood. So whether you are pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, or pan-trib (everything will pan out ok) let us not forget all of these events are controlled by the Father and the least we can do is be prepared for this event.
As believers, I think we can believe whatever we want on the "rapture" without facing condemnation on judgment day. However as a teacher of the Word, as with any scripture, we had better have God's understanding on the matter, and not just regurgitate something that some other teacher has taught you, and liking the sound of it, pass it on to others. ALL who teach wrong teachings, will be held accountable, including me. Some here seem to have a very ho-hum attitude about this matter, but with this subject being on the front line of so many churches doctrines, and if they have it wrong this is a very serious matter.Blessings Greg
Brother Dom, you may appreciate this book as I have.[url=http://www.pbministries.org/Eschatology/tregelles/The_Hope/the_hope.htm]The Hope of Christ's Second Coming[/url]LORD Bless
Brother, I'm sorry - I meant to give you this fuller page that the link above came from.http://www.pbministries.org/Eschatology/eschatology.htmGOD Bless !