| Poster | Thread | sermonindex
Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | Quote:
i just wanted to take a wuick opportunity to point out that Brother Ravenhill did speak at a holiness confrence with the so called False Prophets of kansas city.
in either 1988 or 1991 Leonard Ravenhill spoke at a holiness confrence put on by the Vineyard church, the people there were, (john paul jackson, paul cain, john wimber, mike bickle, ect).
Brother Andrew, thank you for sharing this interesting and important topic. Do you have the tapes from this conference, I would love to get a copy to listen to and God-willing get some of them up on the site for others?
Quote:
If anybody ever asked me to come preach at any of their churches, I would. No matter what denomination.
That was a hallmark of Leonard Ravenhill's ministry as far as I know, he would preach in basically any church that accepting him. I am not sure about his criteria in this selection and I am sure he refused church invites, actually later in his life I know he refused many revival conferences etc in different parts of the world because he felt they were not really seeking after revival, know that is wisdom. I do think Leonard Ravenhill knew John Wimber and many other of those characters, and I would say that many of them in their early days were right on with the Lord. I had a conversation a few months ago with a brother from this site that knows the ministry of Mike Bickle quite well and He told me many things about his early ministry. But sadly many of these men went astray the best example of this is Paul Cain. At one of the worst points of the Kansas city prophets movement, Paul Cain had women strip their clothes off when they came to meet him, and he used biblical passages about being bare before the Lord, etc. Clearly that was not Spirit-led and he was into gross error and God was giving him and others into their own lusts.
I remember hearing Leonard Ravenhill speak very well of Reinhard Bonke in the Elijah Video but that doesnt mean he 100% approved of him, and it especially means he wouldnt 100% approve of him now. He spoke of things and recommended things as best as he could, ravenhill was not perfect and cannot be a plumbline to measure the truthfulness of men in our day. The word of God and the Spirit of Truth bears witness with our hearts about the Truth and who is [b]of[/b] the Truth.
Quote:
Ravenhill did do/say some strange things in his later years, I'd have to know more about the situation to tell if he was rightly or wrongly involving himself with the people in question.
He was getting quite old and there were many people hounding around him asking for approval, blessing, and even his mantle. But as I have quoted in other threads, ravenhill said: "but nobody has ever asked for my burden".
Quote:
As for a point you brought up somewhere else, about the focus of this website being against certain "false prophets" and their ministries; a lot of the teaching is against that, particularly from Art Katz and David Wilkerson. However, much of it is simply on Biblical repentance and revival (listen to some of A.W. Tozer, T. Austin Sparks, Paris Reidhead, etc).
Well in some ways brother andrew is right, this website was really started from a burden of grief on my part over the state of Christianity. Truth seems to be by the wayside even though there are people proclaiming revival and new revelation, God was driving me into the dust to repent and seek the old paths. I don't know how God is going to revive Christianity out of where it is. :cry: This site is against falsehood not by clearly showing what is false but in more cases showing the light of truth which when shown will clearly in contrast reveal what is false.
Quote:
We certainly need discernment in these days. Much of the "prophetic" ministry is a bit out of control in my view but I'm not acquainted enough with Mike Bickle, John Wimber, and some of the other folks to comment.
Yes we are lacking in discernment but its as Carter Conlon has said most of the falsities that are happening doing really require that much discernment! But the sad thing is we are all confused whether this is God or not, yes we do need a prophet, a true prophet to speak against the mess that we are in. I have heard Keith Daniels speak quite powerfully to some things in North American Christianity, he has a powerful unction from God but I would not call him a prophet.
_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
|
|  2004/5/27 2:11 | Profile | philologos
Member
Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
If anybody ever asked me to come preach at any of their churches, I would. No matter what denomination. No matter if they were Christians or not. Wherever somebody is asked to proclaim the gospel, I think it is usually wise to do so.
Hi Jimmy
Some years ago I was preaching in India and was invited to the Loreto Convent, a Catholic order of nuns working with the poor. The meeting was about 20 folk, mostly nuns, a few priests and the rest 'lay' people. I was most uncomfortable. I was asking the Lord why I was there.
I opened the chorus book and right next to 'all over the world the Spirit is moving' was a chorus which began 'Hail, to the virgin of Lourdes'. By now I was even more uncomfortable.
Then there occurred one of those simple little prayer conversations.
I said "Lord, what am I doing here?"
He said "Can you love these people?"
I said "Yes'
He said "Do you want to be a blessing to these people"
I said "Yes"
He said "That's how I feel"
It changed by attitude permanently. I cannot endorse some doctrines but if God opens the door I must step through it.
_________________
Ron Bailey
|
| | 2004/5/27 9:06 | Profile | moreofHim
Member
Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632
| | Re: preaching | | Quote:
I said "Lord, what am I doing here?"
He said "Can you love these people?"
I said "Yes'
He said "Do you want to be a blessing to these people"
I said "Yes"
He said "That's how I feel"
Thank you for sharing that. I was feeling the same way about us having the concert at this "movie theater" church. I didn't even want to step inside. But the Lord reminded me, even through a friend that light must be brought into the darkness(and not all darkness is what we would call darkness- just where the truth is not shining)
Though I don't agree with what they are doing and how they are doing things trying to copy the megachurch ways, etc... I know they still need to see and hear the real love of Jesus and His truth. I would have rather had the concert at a non- christian place than there. The Lord has shown me my error.
That church is probably very damaged by this former pastor who had a gay affair (speaking of "false")- and has now left and started another church. They need a healing that only the Lord can bring. :-(
Not to go on to much, but this seems to be a new phenomenon lately- this thing about pastors being involved with gay relationships and either quitting or leaving the church. It happened at my in-laws church too. :-o
Can you imagine the spiritual damage?! The trust issues? Knowing that you've been led and taught by a liar and an immoral man?
so sad.
-chanin
_________________
Chanin
|
| | 2004/5/27 9:34 | Profile | sermonindex
Moderator
Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 39795
Canada
Online! | | Re: | | I just got this email from a dear brother that has conversed with David Ravenhill on this subject, here is his email:
------
Actually,
what david ravenhill said about leonards interaction with all those Kansas city guys was that he initially preached at some of their conferences and ministered there. But later on, as it seemed the K.C. guys moved into some different directions, Leonard then no longer had the association with them that he once had. To what degree he dis-associated, I dont know . But I know there was a change of mind there. anyway, just a bit of info I thought I'd pass on to you if anyone is curious about it all..
laters
chad sepulveda
-----
_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon
|
| | 2004/5/27 13:39 | Profile | jeremyhulsey
Member
Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777
| | Re: | | Another person, Keith Green, was licensed in the Vinyard movement. I've never seen anything in Keith's short ministry before he died that could be related to the extremes of the Vinyard. His death was almost a decade before the KC prophet debacle. I wonder how he would have reacted to that.
_________________
Jeremy Hulsey
|
| | 2004/5/27 13:49 | Profile | KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: Ravenhill hanging out with "false prophets"? | | One thing that has always somewhat concerned me with Ravenhill is that he doesn't seem to mind the fact some of his favorite Christian's through the years held some widely differing doctrine. It *seems* that Ravenhill didn't mind if folks doctrines were off, so long as they preached against sin, preached about the holiness of God, preached about the power of God, and prayed a lot, then it seems they were often accepted into his hall-of-fame of post-bible faith heros.
So, to say that he might have been friends with folks like Mike Bickle or John Wimber does not totally shock me. After all, Bickle is famous for starting his 24-hour house of prayer in Kansas, and John Wimber is very proactive about "power encounter" style evangelism. I do remember Ravenhill in one sermon fondly mentioning the fact that somebody had started a 24-hour house of prayer in Kansas.
_________________
Jimmy H
|
| | 2004/5/27 18:09 | Profile | KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
Another person, Keith Green, was licensed in the Vinyard movement.
Green was sorta in it's early stages though. From the impression I received in Green's biography, it doesn't seem like it was a very big deal to him to be ordained by them. It almost seems like it was an honorary ordination of sorts.
Also, I believe Keith Green was in some mixed company in the closing years of his life. John Dawson was a close friend of Green, and introduced him to the spiritual warfare idea of breaking various territorial spirits that reside over areas. John Dawson would later go and write a book on the subject. It always worried me, because frankly, that stuff has very-little-to-no scriptural basis to it, and is mostly the result of pragmatism... thus the how-to nature of such books.
_________________
Jimmy H
|
| | 2004/5/27 18:13 | Profile | scamper
Member
Joined: 2004/6/7
Posts: 1
| | Re: Gospel of power, vineyard or otherwise. who cares. | | The words and comments about saints like Mike Bickle and John Wimber both of whom i've met and have seen indisputable fruit from their ministries (in proportions many of us could only dream) prove what the apostle Paul warned Timothy would happen in the last days. "people will be lovers of themselves, boasters, proud, blasphemers, false accusers, having a form of Godliness but denying its power."
Though I currently attend a Mennonite bretheren church (Jesus cares way less about denominations than we do--I have no mennonite blood in me!), my years at the Vineyard taught me some amazing things. Firstly, as Acts 10:38 says, "God annointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and with power." And he "went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the enemy because God was with him"! Note; not because he was God. He had already laid aside his divine attributes. (They taught me "I get to do the stuff!" And am I ever jazzed about it.)
I can confirm this in another place. God has never lost the authority of the universe, correct?
Jesus says, "all authority has been given unto me." God never lost the authority. He gave it to Jesus. Jesus spoke these words as the son of man. He commissioned us as a brother. Not as God.
Maybe the only reason Matthew and Luke neglect the signs and wonders portion in the great commission (that Mark includes) is because Jesus was talking about the gospel. And the gospel of the kingdom is a gospel of power. Signs and wonders were a given. It was almost redundant to mention it.
If Jesus only saw what he saw the Father doing, and only spoke what he heard the Father saying, and then if He taught the disciples to do exactly the same things, then why did the Fathers mandate to us change?? I don't believe in the bizzare personality change we have put God through to assume he no longer works in power.
Paul told the Roman church that the gospel of Christ was the power of God unto salvation for all who believe. Nowadays we modify our doctrines based on our limited experience and miniscule faith. And while I agree that the biggest miracle of all is the forgiveness of a sinner who repents, I gotta ask, then where are all the little miracles like blind eyes seeing and deaf ears hearing and lame men dancing? I want to see some of the little miracles too! It doesn't really make sense to me that God only performs the the biggest one.
We're gonna disagree, people! Big deal. Paul confronted Peter for being two faced. We all fail. William Brahnam went off track and believed some weird things late in life. So we don't discount an entire wave of ministry of the Holy Spirit because a guy goes awol! That doesn't even mean that the signs and wonders he did earlier in his ministry were not under the power of God.
Are there counterfeit signs and wonders? Sure. But that means they are counterfeiting OUR REALITY! If there is fake money, it is just trying to get as close as possible to the real thing. Making counterfeit money is useless if the real thing doesn't exist.
The following link is a message from Jackie Pullinger who ministers at Saint Stephens in Hong Kong. She is as close to a hero in the faith as I will ever let myself have. I want even to be like her in that she wants to be pretty much "unimpressed with anyone who isn't Jesus" to quote David Ruis about her. She has prayed, and seen rice come from heaven to feed a prostitute on the streets because she had nothing else to give her. I got the link of this very website.
Cessationalist, I dare you to listen to the 90 minutes of her testimony. We don't believe in the power of God today because we have never tried giving till we have nothing else to give, such that the only way someone is going to have their needs met is if God intervenes. And I'm preaching to myself here!!!! We need to learn to minister the love of Jesus just as he did. Because he imitated his Father, our Father.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=726&forum=34#3721
Christians.....imitators of Christ, little Christs;
Lets get it done! Matt 24:16 "This gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in all nations. Then the end will come." The gospel of the kingdom is a gospel of power. It "does not consist in words but in power". How much more biblical confirmation do we need? |
| | 2004/6/8 1:08 | Profile | jeremyhulsey
Member
Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777
| | Re: | | Quote:
The words and comments about saints like Mike Bickle and John Wimber both of whom i've met and have seen indisputable fruit from their ministries (in proportions many of us could only dream) prove what the apostle Paul warned Timothy would happen in the last days. "people will be lovers of themselves, boasters, proud, blasphemers, false accusers, having a form of Godliness but denying its power."
Scamper,
Friend, you are in error because you do not know the scriptures. This verse you paraphrased about the "power" of God has NOTHING to do with signs or wonders, but about a godly life.
I believe you are attacking the wrong people when you try to fasley call us cessationists. I, for one, am a pentecostal and believe in all the workings of God. I also know that it does not pertain at all to the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit is a changed life from ungodliness to godliness, NOT working miracles. If that were the case then men like Bickle and Cain would be unable to produce miracles.
As far as Branham goes, yeah he believed some weird things later in life, but if you study his life, he believed some weird things at the beginning of it too.
You are correct that we need a revival, but it HAS to be loyal to the TRUTH! A revival is not about people roaring like lions and barking like dogs and running around giving personal prophecies all over the place. We don't need people being taught how to "birth" or laying with their pillows up front "soaking", that's not revival, that's foolishness. Revival is a return to the holiness of God in humility and repentance! When people sought "signs and wonders" Jesus called them a wicked and adultress generation. And we haven't changed at all.
Perhaps you should listen to a couple of sermons from Carter Conlon:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2251]Ministers of Laciviousness[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=2134]A Warning To An Evil Generation[/url]
I pray that you will see that the power of God is not about signs and wonders, but about truth and righteousness.
In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey
_________________
Jeremy Hulsey
|
| | 2004/6/8 10:53 | Profile | shill
Member
Joined: 2004/5/26
Posts: 1
| | Re: | | well, i am not all all surpised that this controversy has reared its head. you cannot please all of the people all of the time. Having heard the ministry of Ravenhill, Wimber, Bickle and Cain I believe they are all first and foremost lovers of Jesus and pure of heart in that sense. some day we will all know the answers - maybe the critics don't understnad Leonard Ravenhill as they think they do and are attempting to put him in a particular box - i think you 'll find that like his Master it will be very difficult to categorise any of the aforementioned brothers as anything other than sincere but human lovers of God.
for my part I am more concerned at the inclusion of a man who is linked to politics which incite people to violence - Ian Paisley. I would welcome the site moderator/administrators comments on this one!
|
| | 2004/6/8 11:47 | Profile |
|
