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Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Genisis in the Torah

I was doing some research and came across looking into the Torah to see how it coinsides with the Bible.

The first thing that struck me was in Bereshit (Genisis) 1:26. was this verse:

[i]26 And G-d said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth'.[/i]

Looking at this, the Torah says the same as the Bible. This we know.

If this translation is correct, how is it a stretch for the Jews to believe that Jesus is the Messiah? How can Bereshit be taught differently to suggest the Lord without the trinity?

I am no Torah scholar or authority on Jewish scriptures, so any help explaining this will be appreciated.

Christiaan


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Christiaan

 2007/11/16 0:44Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re: Genisis in the Torah

Hey Miccah,

I'm not sure I know all the answers on this, but I have a very simple explanation that may help. I have had the honor of attending almost every denomination of Christian churches around our country, and in my experience this is what I have seen.

You go to one church, and they read an entire chapter from the Bible, and they give a message on it, then you have another that takes the same chapter and reads only a few verse at the beginning, and a few at the end, but skips the middle. Then you have those that read only the beginning, and those that read only the end.

You see, as humans we see only what we want to see. We base everything around us off of what we want to see or expect to see. Anytime something differs from our personal guideline we ignore it, and we do so often times unintentionally.

The jews believe that the messiah will come and overthrow all the other nations, and exalt israel, and reign as king. So anytime a different idea comes in the scriptures, they just like all the denominations pass over it.


Israel as a people will never believe as a people until we as gentiles move them to a place of jealousy over the fact that our God is their God, but we have authority, and blessing, and peace, but they do not. Until signs and wonders are notably done by us as gentiles, they will not believe as a people. Some of them as individuals will believe, but not as a nation.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/11/16 11:22Profile
ZekeO
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Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re:

Quote:

BenWilliams wrote:
Israel as a people will never believe as a people until we as gentiles move them to a place of jealousy over the fact that our God is their God

This is a interesting thought, have you any more ideas i.e scriptures to expand on this a bit more? What do you think the Jews would look for in such cases?


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2007/11/16 11:35Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:


BenWilliams wrote:

Quote:

Israel as a people will never believe as a people until we as gentiles move them to a place of jealousy over the fact that our God is their God, but we have authority, and blessing, and peace, but they do not. Until signs and wonders are notably done by us as gentiles, they will not believe as a people. Some of them as individuals will believe, but not as a nation.



Is there anything in scripture that says that God will blind the eyes of the Jews until the appointed time? I remember hearing something like this but am not sure. I just don't see how the Torah explains the Trinity, but the Jews cannot "see" it?

Christiaan


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Christiaan

 2007/11/16 11:38Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

ZekeO wrote:

Quote:
This is a interesting thought, have you any more ideas i.e scriptures to expand on this a bit more? What do you think the Jews would look for in such cases?



Yes I do,

[b][color=FF0000]Romans 11:10-12

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?[/color][/b]

Here is just one part of an entire passage where Paul is discussing this very issue.

As for my own thoughts on what will cause them to be jealous?

You have to understand the mentality of a Jew to understand what would cause him to be jealous, a few of those things are:

Wealth, the Jews believe that those who are righteous are blessed, take Job as an example, or Abraham, or Jacob.

Power is another issue, if we have genuine authority, carried with great meekness, to heal the sick, cast out devils, these are the things that the prophets of Israel did, so when we do them, it puts 2 and 2 together in their heads, and they realize that we have the power of their God, and they don't.

This is why many times the disciples would preach by first doing a sign or wonder, healing someone, because when they did, it forced the people to recognize what they said as true.

Also, I believe that it will be an issue of men and women who live righteously, if we tell them that we have God as our father, and we live sinful lives, they will say "yeah right" and be done with us. It will take holy men and women to show them the blessing, power, and truth of Jesus Christ, and that He is God.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/11/16 11:48Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Miccah wrote:

Quote:
Is there anything in scripture that says that God will blind the eyes of the Jews until the appointed time? I remember hearing something like this but am not sure. I just don't see how the Torah explains the Trinity, but the Jews cannot "see" it?



Well, the verses I posted in my last post appear to say that, but I don't know about the whole idea of God blinding them, if he did, that would mean that he is purposefully sending them to hell, I don't agree with that at all.

But I do believe that because of the hardness of their own hearts, it has caused them to be blind to the truth.

As far as them having visible understanding of the Trinity, you have to remember that we have the revelation of what they have.

Meaning this, the new testament is the revelation of the old testament, and the old testament is the concealment of the new testament.

So they have but dark sayings, parables, some things revealed, some things concealed, but we have the testament that completely reveals and interprets the old testament, or the torah.

You have to remember that it is easy for us who have the revelation of the NT to say to them, why don't you see it in your Torah?

But this is the same issue that Jesus dealt with when the disciples could not understand His parables. They did not have the spirit of God within them revealing mysteries.

So we have the interpretation, and they have the prophecy, this is why Paul would debate in the synagogs constantly, showing the the prophecies, and their fulfillments in Christ.

If you want a good book to let a Jew read, buy "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" it is excellent material.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/11/16 12:00Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

BenWilliams wrote:

Quote:


Well, the verses I posted in my last post appear to say that, but I don't know about the whole idea of God blinding them, if he did, that would mean that he is purposefully sending them to hell, I don't agree with that at all.



I agree. I do not think that God will send them to hell. Wasn't sure if there was some scripture that explained what I was saying. Your postings before helped explain.

Quote:
If you want a good book to let a Jew read, buy "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" it is excellent material.



Thanks. I will look into this book.

Christiaan


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Christiaan

 2007/11/16 13:47Profile





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