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 Re: Judgementalism will eventually KILL this forum

Heyyy brother Krispy
I have not been following the post, I just spotted it and read yours. I love your heart man, just telling it how it is and doing it with love. Can I suggest something bro, go out on your deck and have a nice big cigar :) I hope you feel the love brother, there is more of you out there than you think, keep on truckin and following His lead , I know you do and will..............Appolus

 2007/11/15 9:30
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re: Judgementalism will eventually KILL this forum

I thank you for your honesty and I see your heart. I haven't peaked into the whole drinking thread yet so I don't know what ruckus happened over there. Definitely there is a line where one comes to while judging and it does more harm then good. Sometimes we can't see the difference between judging and arguing. I hope that you don't leave this forum because there are good things that come out of this too. You are not obliged to respond to people that relentlessly judge and criticize. We are here to edify and build up not to tear down and destroy. I'm glad that you came to the conclusion to still love us, forgive us and to humbly see yourself as a mere vessel in which God's spirit dwells. That takes much strength. God Bless you. Although I have some comments regarding to what you wrote and I will write them as far away from judging as possible because we may sometimes feel like we are being judge when we are not and sometimes we try to convince and argue a point with someone when we are actually judging but this whole negative connotation that has been put on judging is improper and need to be balanced and weighed by the word of God. I don't think many people including myself know exactly what judging entirely is. Sometimes we get judging mixed up with correcting, rebuking, reproofing and preaching against something false which is not judging. Anyways here are my comments:

you said: "A long time ago, when my wife and I came out of the deception that is called Word of Faith, we both prayed together one night that God would lead us thru the Holy Spirit into all truth, just as He promised He would do."

I am not a part of the word of faith movement but what did God reveal to you how it was a deception?

You said:

"I do not agree that drinking a glass of wine is a sin worthy of hellfire... therefore I am not saved."

Although I don't even drink wine I still do believe that drinking wine just as a drink not to make you drunk isn't a sin. It is a sin whenever you have become a slave to it. Jesus says that he who sins is a slave to sin. Many people don't have all the many varieties of drinks that we have in America such as all the juices, pops, hot drinks and cold drinks. Some people all they have to refresh themselves are wine and water. For us to drink wine instead of all the other drinks shows some kind of tie to that drink in which it does something to you, it makes you feel a certain way so you are inclined to it. So I would say it is in the category of the all things permissible but not all things beneficiary or are good because they might master you.

You said:

"Paul defended the eating of meat that had been sacrificed to alters... but you wouldnt say that he was doing so at the expense of spiritual stumblers. You would say he was teaching truth."

Paul did indeed say that if what you drink or eat causes your brother to stumble you are sinning although drinking wine or eating food sacrificed to idols or eating unclean meat isn't a sin in and of themselves but if it causes your brother to stumble you are then sinning against Christ and I think that many Christians who have the faith and conviction of God that it is okay to drink wine sin because there weak brothers see them drinking and they mistake them for getting drunk and having a good time so they go and do it themselves saying if my big brother can do it and stay saved then so can I.

You said:

"Julian took me to task because I have been open about the fact that in the course of a 12 month period I may smoke 2 or 3 cigars... usually when camping or deer hunting. While I believe strongly that a smoking "habit" is a sin because the smoker is allowing the cigarette to rule and reign (a god), I do not believe that smoking 2 or 3 cigars in the course of a year is a sin. I'm not promoting smoking, I'm just being open and honest about what I believe."

Truly I don't know how you can smoke and still operate as a Christian because of the intense evil connotation that is on it based upon the media, the society and the majority of unbelievers who do it but that is the same thing for a person that looks at pornography. How can anyone who looks at pornography operate as a Christian when even the society calls it wrong? People are probably easy to condemn you in that area of smoking but I know my sins and they are no different from smoking. Now you don't believe smoking is a sin rather the habit of smoking is a sin but how do you say only 3 cigars this year and not go on into 4 or 5 or 6 cigars? Is smoking something that is a luxury for you that you get to do and regulate so that you don't over do it? God said not to love the world neither the things that are in the world. I know that Charles Spurgeon smoked a cigar every now and then and that is between him and God. This is between you and God because it could be a sin but then again it could not be but now that many of your brothers know that you consider it okay to smoke in moderation then they could say to themselves okay then I can do it too. This would be a sin unto you and cause your brother to stumble because they would say why just smoke cigars? Why not cigarettes? Why not marijuana? Why not cocaine or crack? If as long as you smoke cocaine in moderation or 3 times a year is it still not a sin? You see where I am going? But overall we will know you by your fruit and if you don't produce the fruit of the spirit than your smoking cigars isn't a primary factor anymore for a person to prove you don't have the spirit but the lack of fruit in your life.

I hope I have shed some light onto your situation. I am too in that category of not being perfect. I need God's forgiveness daily. I pray that you will not be offended in your faith in Christ and that no one or no thing would hinder you in your love and devotion for Christ. Amen




_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/11/15 9:31Profile
MSeaman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan

 Re: Judgementalism will eventually KILL this forum

Krispy,
Great post. I'd believe I'm not saved before I ever thought that of you. Bless you brother.


_________________
Melissa

 2007/11/15 9:50Profile
InTheGarden
Member



Joined: 2007/11/3
Posts: 22
Ft. Wayne, IN

 Re: Judgementalism will eventually KILL this forum

Thank you, Brother Krispy, for your post. Like others have said, I appreciate your openness. It isn't often that you find men of God willing to rebuke lovingly when a rebuke is needed! Thank you!

May the Spirit guide us into His truth!!

Mikah


_________________
Mikah Litchfield

 2007/11/15 9:51Profile









 Re:

Everett... thank you for your kind and brotherly response. If we would all respond as you have I think a lot the things I'm addressing on this thread would be resolved.

Very quickly, let me say that I agree with most of what you had to say. You are correct about what Paul said concerning causing others to stumble. Let me say tho that many take this too far and wont even address this topc in the light of scripture because they're afraid that they might cause someone to stumble by being honest about what scripture actually says. So they try to reason that Jesus turned the water into grape juice, etc. See what i mean? But absolutely you are correct... we should be willing to sacrifice our liberty for the sake of our brethren. "The greatest of these is love." Thats the message there.

As to smoking, I think since I was raised in a state where for the longest time the two biggest exports were textiles and tobacco, my attitude toward that topic may be a little different than those from other areas... I don't know. Smoking as a habit is wrong, scripture is clear that it becomes a god. You compare tobacco to porn, but I think that's a stretch. Clearly porn is a moral and purity issue that cuts to the core of the spirit. Enjoying a cigar as a luxery when sitting around a camp fire is not the same thing.

Marijuana? Hmmm... not the same thing. Clearly the only reason to smoke pot is to get high. It doesn't go well with meat (...well, brownies and doritos perhaps). It is mind altering, and we are clearly commanded in scripture to exercise self control... and you cant do that and smoke pot. Not to mention that smoking pot is disobedience to civil authority... another sin.

As for what brought us out of WOF.... oh boy, long story. I've gone over that a number of times on this forum. If you cant find any threads where I discuss this, let me know and I'll go over it again.

Thanx again, brother!

Krispy

 2007/11/15 10:02
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

I've experienced the same issues on this forum, and I'm just about spent. I have enough drama in my life not to have to deal with internet-drama.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2007/11/15 10:47Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I've experienced the same issues on this forum, and I'm just about spent. I have enough drama in my life not to have to deal with internet-drama.



Yea, brother Ian... I think I'm in that place as well, but not willing to give up and quit like some are.

Stick around bro.

Krispy

 2007/11/15 10:49









 Re:

Quote:
Julian took me to task because I have been open about the fact that in the course of a 12 month period I may smoke 2 or 3 cigars... usually when camping or deer hunting. While I believe strongly that a smoking "habit" is a sin because the smoker is allowing the cigarette to rule and reign (a god), I do not believe that smoking 2 or 3 cigars in the course of a year is a sin. I'm not promoting smoking, I'm just being open and honest about what I believe.

Krispy, you know that I love you regardless. Our only one differences is that when one receives the holy Spirit they will speak in other tongues. But I would never say to you that you are not saved. We are saved by grace thru faith.

If I may say this, and please don't look at this as judgmentalism.

When we open up to others about our personal indulgences, we are opening ourselves up for criticism. Because not everyone is like you or I. Not everyone can understand why. To the one who was saved from a life of alcoholism, and for you or I to say that an occasional drink is not a sin, to him it is a sin. Who has the problem? We do! We need to be silent on certain issues for the sake of loving him.

They say that we should be an open book, that is tricky and dangerous. The only one's that we should be that open too is our LORD and our wives/husbands.

For example, we wouldn't serve the meat of the word to babes. Then why try to serve our liberality to those who have not this understanding?
Quote:
Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? [b]have it to thyself before God[/b]. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.



To me, the romance of hunting and having a cigar sounds sporty.

There are only two mind sets here. One is coming from a religious mindset, the other is coming from a deliverance mind set. To the legalistic person, I could care less if they fall flat on their face, because they need to fall down so that the LORD can have mercy on them, a proud look and lying tongue He hates.

The other who has been delivered from substance abuse, I literally shudder if I find out that I had anything to do with his fall. For this cause do I keep my liberal actions to myself and I give thanks before the LORD.

I love you Steve!

 2007/11/15 11:15









 Re:

Quote:
When we open up to others about our personal indulgences, we are opening ourselves up for criticism. Because not everyone is like you or I. Not everyone can understand why. To the one who was saved from a life of alcoholism, and for you or I to say that an occasional drink is not a sin, to him it is a sin. Who has the problem? We do! We need to be silent on certain issues for the sake of loving him.



Comp... absolutely I agree with you. When I was open about those topics I fully expected criticism and disagreement. What I am concerned about is statements that a "true Christian" would never believe this or that, or participate in this or that.

See, then you're judging someone's salvation on something other than what scripture says. For instance, most everyone here knows I defend the KJV, and reject modern versions. However, one thing I have never done is say someone is not saved if they dont agree with me on this issue. And I consider this to me a very important issue.

But the fact is... we are not saved by which version we read. I have many brothers and sisters who are strong believers who read the NIV. I was saved in an NIV church.

See what I mean?

I will have to disagree that there are topics we should be silent about. Nothing in scripture is off limits. Even this is a tightrope at times, we can not let an untruth (drinking a glass of win is a sin no matter what) be propogated. Now, the way I have discussed it here may be open for debate... but an untruth is an untruth no matter how good it sounds.

But for me, the debate was not about whether a Christian should or should not drink... it was about man-made rules that are not found in scripture. I'm sure it comes across to some as defending drinking, but thats kinda hard to avoid. Some people are just going to misunderstand no matter how clear I am. It should never prevent us from talking about truth.

And the truth is... scripture never suggests that a glass of wine is sinful. There are clear prohibitions against drunkeness and strong drink... and warnings about the abuse of wine. But never suggests that moderate, responsible consumption is a sin.

Anyway, I appreciate your response bro, and you know I love you too.

Krispy

 2007/11/15 11:36
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

Well, we all learn sometimes by trial and error so I have learned from the recent past to not appear as being "judgmental" for the sake of the other person who is or maybe in need of encouragement. I mean the people we talk to maybe 100% of the time we don't even know them and we still have the guts to label them as not saved. I mean if it is evident you can do that in a kind way and in response to the other persons inquiry but my take on it is how does it feel if someone you don't even know tell you you are not saved?

So I thought cigars are big cigarettes. Either way smoking anything is detrimental for your health but then again just living in this polluted environment is unhealthy. I guess all I can say for smoking is that as long as it doesnt master you, be a stumbling block to a christian or become a god (something you put before God) which if you smoke without doing these things I guess it would be alright but this is extremely hard from my perspective because to take food for example somethings I make food a god or a idol and put it before God because it is not only sustenance to strengthen your body but it is also a type of pleasure and any type of pleasureful activity such as smoking and eating can be over done like we have gluttons and drug addicts for example of those that over do stuff. BUT AGAIN I SAY IT IS VERY HARD TO MODERATE THESE THINGS BECAUSE OF THE FLESH. IF YOU CAN DAILY CRUCIFY THE FLESH AND WALK IN THE SPIRIT THEN THIS CAN BE DONE. I wonder if the old testament prophets, saints and priests ever smoked anything of some kind that wasn't off limits as it is today in our society which is good for the regulation of crime and violence.

The reason I related porn with cigars is that people will be quick to judge you for smoking cigars 3 times a year or more while they may be looking at porn once a month not by choice but by temptation and think that smoking cigars is a greater sin than adultery in the heart. It is probably obvious that you smoke since it is not a secret sin like fornication or masturbation but it is mostly done out in the open so you are more open to say that I smoke cigars 3 times a year. One question that popped up in my mind was that if you smoke only 3 cigars a year then why not go for none? But what matters the most is if you are obeying God's commands. That is for you to figure out cause I can't see your heart whether all you have done listed in the other thread was done in love or for self recognition. I guess we got to lay our all on the altar and God will consume up everything that is not right. Whether cigars stays or goes, God will decide but you will have to obey.

Yeah, I don't remember what thread it was on but I will look. Please do send me a link for the thread page or just the category it is in and the name it is on.

Okay, God Bless


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/11/15 11:36Profile





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