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InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Show me Your Glory - Carrol

There was a recent sermon preached by William Carrol at Times Square Church titled Show Me Your Glory. It is a powerful message that came on the heels of Carter Conlon's sermon about angry watchmen.

However, there is an aspect of this sermon that has me confused. Mr. Carrol states that Moses misrepresented God when he had the Levites kill the 3000 of their brethren for their unrepentant idolatry.

If this is so why did God not rebuke Moses for this action such as when Moses was rebuked for misrepresenting God when he struck the rock instead of speaking to it?

Also, the Scripture records that Moses said to the Levites, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel, 'Put your sword on your side each of you, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill his brother and his companion and his neighbor.'" (Exo 32:27) Moses clearly says this was the Lord's commandment, if this is not so why wasn't he rebuked for it?

Matthew Henry believed Moses was acting as God representative...

Moses, having shown his just indignation against the sin of Israel by breaking the tables and burning the calf, now proceeds to reckon with the sinners and to call them to an account, herein acting as the representative of God, who is not only a holy God, and hates sin, but a just God, and is engaged in honour to punish it, Isa_59:18...

-from Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/11/13 12:54Profile









 Re: Show me Your Glory - Carrol

Brother, this reply is not toward any one ministry - it's just my observations from reflecting back to the old days.

Visited one church once, where the Asst. Pastor said, "Poor brother Moses had poor self-esteem."

One thing is -- psychology has infiltrated the Church.
An example - according to psychology - "People help others or animals because they were hurt in their pasts."

So that would apply to someone like Joseph ? Jesus ?

Psychology is the lie that takes from God's Sovereignty over our lives, from conception on.
HE chooses our birth parents and environment to make us who He planned for us to be --- examples being all the men and women of our Bibles. He puts the burdens in them and fashions them through their entire lives to have that burden that He's formed them for. Their 'works' having been predestined before creation.
Psychology would keep the person focused inward - rather than to see The Glory of God in choosing all the people and circumstances that the person has experienced, in order to fashion them into His image and His calling.

Secondly - more trust is being put into the words of men, than the Word of God.

Slowly, this is taking away from the Living Authority of His Words and giving it over to men. If our favorite Author said it - it must be true and don't show us Scriptures contrary.

It's all been happening so slowly and subtley that we barely notice it happening - where The Word is being stripped of It's Authority and replaced by human reasoning.

The fact that The Word is Spirit is being forgotten. That it's much more than "writings", but the only source of regenerating/transforming the mind and spirit and the increasing of faith, etc. - in a lasting sense and so forth.
That it's Living and the only book in the Universe that can claim that for itself. Our 'only' plumeline. "God Breathed".

According to Paul, it is never "nit-picky" to be a Berean and make sure it's in there - even though Paul wrote half of it.
If he didn't mind being critiqued, but in fact, praised and encouraged it - then who are any other men?

Their names are not here --

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve Apostles of the Lamb.




 2007/11/13 13:52
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
However, there is an aspect of this sermon that has me confused. Mr. Carrol states that Moses misrepresented God when he had the Levites kill the 3000 of their brethren for their unrepentant idolatry.

If this is so why did God not rebuke Moses for this action such as when Moses was rebuked for misrepresenting God when he struck the rock instead of speaking to it?

Also, the Scripture records that Moses said to the Levites, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel, 'Put your sword on your side each of you, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and each of you kill his brother and his companion and his neighbor.'" (Exo 32:27) Moses clearly says this was the Lord's commandment, if this is not so why wasn't he rebuked for it?



I agree with you. I think Carrol is misrepresenting Moses by what he was stating. If we believe what Carrol was saying we have to believe that Moses was speaking in the name of the Lord falsely. Moses plainly said "Thus saith the LORD." If Carrel is right, Moses was lying.

If Moses wouldn't have done what he did, what would God have done? God would have destroyed them! Let's look at Deuteronomy to get another glance of the scene

Deu 9:8 Also in Horeb ye provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was angry with you to have destroyed you.
Deu 9:9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, [even] the tables of the covenant which the LORD made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:
Deu 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them [was written] according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
Deu 9:11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, [that] the LORD gave me the two tables of stone, [even] the tables of the covenant.
Deu 9:12 And the LORD said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted [themselves]; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.
Deu 9:13 Furthermore the LORD spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it [is] a stiffnecked people:
Deu 9:14 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.
Deu 9:15 So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant [were] in my two hands.
Deu 9:16 And I looked, and, behold, ye had sinned against the LORD your God, [and] had made you a molten calf: ye had turned aside quickly out of the way which the LORD had commanded you.
Deu 9:17 And I took the two tables, and cast them out of my two hands, and brake them before your eyes.
Deu 9:18 And I fell down before the LORD, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Deu 9:19 For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure, wherewith the LORD was wroth against you to destroy you. But the LORD hearkened unto me at that time also.
Deu 9:20 And the LORD was very angry with Aaron to have destroyed him: and I prayed for Aaron also the same time.
Deu 9:21 And I took your sin, the calf which ye had made, and burnt it with fire, and stamped it, [and] ground [it] very small, [even] until it was as small as dust: and I cast the dust thereof into the brook that descended out of the mount.

Moses sounds pretty compassionate...

Exd 32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
Exd 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
Exd 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exd 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Exd 32:34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto [the place] of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
Exd 32:35 And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.



I don't want to impute bad motives to Carrol, but a "check" did come to me while I listened to it. And that was "don't try to preach someone else's sermon with your own text." Again, I'm not trying to speak against him but that is what came to mind.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/11/13 15:41Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
Moses said to the Levites, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel, ….. Moses clearly says this was the Lord's commandment, if this is not so why wasn't he rebuked for it?


Actually, I was wondering about this too. Why do we not read that God was displeased? Also, if Moses’ anger was indeed sin, then his words “Thus says the Lord…” could not have been a reliable indication that he had heard God correctly, for one does not normally hear God properly while steaming with anger. (How many angry prophets today “hear” God speaking condemnation?)

Perhaps God was not dealing with Moses' anger at that time (or even other times that he was angry). Perhaps God had purposed to use Moses' anger to bring judgment on Israel, just as he used others, ex Samson, ungodly nations, etc.

One thing for sure, Moses, in spite of his remarkable meekness and faith, had a residual anger problem – and it eventually caught up with him:
He had a tendency to get angry when he experienced rejection. He was "hot with anger" when Pharaoh rejected his appeal Ex. 11:8. He was angry when the Israelites rejected his instructions for gathering manna. Ex.16:20, When they rejected his leadership and made an idol, "his anger burned and he threw the tablets…" Ex. 32:6

Later, his God-ordained authority was rejected when two hundred and fifty well-known community leaders accused him of making himself a prince over them and then failing to get them to the Promised Land (Nu. 16:13-15).

One time when there was no water, "the people gathered in opposition to Moses and…quarreled with Moses" Nu. 20:2,3. They obviously were still rejecting God's program. That's when Moses lost it and in a fit of rage, he struck the rock twice rather than following God's command to speak to it. He was fed up with the Israelites and for a moment, got his eyes off of God. He said to the people, "Must WE bring you water out of this rock." Nu. 20:10. Moses had taken the burden onto himself instead of regarding it as God's task.

In this episode, Moses had failed to accept the sinful condition of the people. He failed to leave the vengeance with God; he failed to trust God; and he failed to exemplify God's holiness. As a result, he received a judgment. He was not allowed to enter the Promised Land. From:[url=http://www.quiteexcellent.com/thewayback.net/articles/ANGER/title.htm]Why are you Angry? [/url]


Regardless of how the incident under question is interpreted, certainly, we can never use Moses’ anger to justify our own destructive actions and condemning words. And so Carrol’s point is not altered.

(Maybe he could have used another illustration.
Where else in scripture was the anger of a propeht destrctive?)


Diane


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Diane

 2007/11/13 20:05Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Regardless of how the incident under question is interpreted, certainly, we can never use Moses’ anger to justify our own destructive actions and condemning words. And so Carrol’s point is not altered. (Maybe he could have used another illustration. Where else in scripture was the anger of a propeht destrctive?)



Yes, the point of the sermon is well taken. I do pray that each of us would seek God's face and ask Him to show us His glory so that we might never misrepresent Him in any way, especially to prodigals returning to Christ.

What came to mind when you mentioned angry prophet was how Jonah simmered when he was outside of Ninevah after they repented at his message. I suppose his anger was only self-destructive (and perhaps gourd-destructive) but it is another case where man's anger and God's mercy are contrasted.

And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
(Jon 4:11)

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2007/11/13 22:28Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

What are the visible signs of someone working in selfish anger and someone in a "godly anger"? We know it's possible to have a "godly anger" as God himself is said to be angry and Jesus was from time to time.

Mar 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/11/13 22:49Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:

PreachParsly wrote:

Mar 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.



I just glanced at Wesley's notes on this verse.

Mar 3:5 - Looking round upon them with anger, being grieved - Angry at the sin, grieved at the sinner; the true standard of Christian anger. But who can separate anger at sin from anger at the sinner? None but a true believer in Christ.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/11/13 22:52Profile
broclint
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Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re: Re: PreachParsly’s

quote: I agree with you. I think Carrol is misrepresenting Moses by what he was stating. If we believe what Carrol was saying we have to believe that Moses was speaking in the name of the Lord falsely.

I appreciate the examination of what is preached by placing it up against the context and the rest of the Word of God. There was far more liberty taken with the text and context than is warranted, and that is not just in reference to this particular minister, but that is far too often the case. The Word of God says what it means even if we do not always discern what it means. But it never means less than what it says. And in this case Moses was made to be the culprit “holding the ten commandments over their head” whereas the idolatry was almost totally overlooked. And those who operated from the same hatred of sin that is found consistently in the Holy God who did not even spare the Only Begotten Son when He became sin for us… they were made in this message to be acting without love. But love is consistently manifest in hatred of those things that are destructive of eternal souls.

Psalms 97:10 (KJV) 10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Again this is not just in regard to this particular messenger, but a general statement: Anyone anywhere can take the Word of God in hand and make statements that may be generally true, but we are not at liberty anytime to make the Word of God say what we want it to say to fit the occasion or to agree with some other preacher, or to promote some favorite doctrine. This Moses, the meekest man on earth according to God’s assessment of him who was one of only two that appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration with the Lord was so beloved of God that when his flesh and blood brother and sister critiqued his marital status, Miriam was smitten with leprosy.
I believe it is a dangerous thing to try to psychoanalyse and put into the mouths of any of these heroes of the faith words that are not a part of the Holy record. I am not talking about trying to paint a picture of their character from the Word of God….. but even there, I believe we must be very careful.
Proverbs 17:15 (NKJV) 15 He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, Both of them alike are an abomination to the Lord.


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Clint Thornton

 2007/11/14 0:02Profile









 Re: Show me You glory - Carrol

Hi Ron and all,

I listened again last night to the whole sermon. First of all, Carrol makes clear before he proceeds, that he is trying to take the morning message (Beware of the Angry Watchmen), further. Understanding this, therefore, I hear his complaints about Moses' anger in the context [i]not[/i] of its original appearance. Rather, he is complaining about church leaders who have an Old Covenant mentality when they are dealing with sin and sinners, and showing how inappropriate this mindset is under the New Covenant.

I agree, he does not give Moses his place as the only person who was hearing from God, and who was charged (as many future prophets were also), to act out God's feelings in the sight of the people, as a means of communicating truth [i]about[/i] God (sin, judgement) to them. But, his intention is to show that angry watchmen [u]claim[/u] they are speaking for God when they hold the law over people's heads, when the time for that is long gone (under the New Covenant). Thus, what he makes of Moses' ability to flare up and oversteip his commission is valid, and most certainly under the New Covenant is unacceptable behaviour from any leader.

It was definitely a message for believers. His assumption that everyone knows something about the New Covenant, was clear, but the link between God's anger being poured out on Jesus, was not (clear).

Also I noticed he used the word 'covering' in a allusion to the New Covenant, when describing Moses seeing God's glory from a protected position. But 'covering' really has no place in the New Covenant, because we see Him face-to-face and live. However, this is would be a small point, except, perhaps, to a nation which needs consciously to [i]lose[/i] its use of 'covering' [u]every[/u] time the New Covenant is mentioned. While this mixture persists, which is a key part of [u]the lie[/u] in prosperity teaching, confused sheep will not be able to hear\see for themselves where they are being deceived by false teachers.

Overall though, I believe Carrol addressed the needs of his listeners masterfully under the Spirit, speaking to the needs of their hearts and to the needs of this hour. He presented a God of love who welcomes returning sinners, and I think it takes courage to address so vocally, the false teaching of our time.

I believe this needs to go a lot further though, especially in the light of the call to forgive angry watchmen, which was made at the end. This call should be accompanied by a determination to [i]challenge[/i] angry watchmen, in the same way as we all are called to challenge one another over sin.

This is when the rubber really hits the road but may be mitigated in some people's minds with God's plea to leave vengeance to Him. Where this leaves other New Testament injunctions towards love, exhortation to faith, finding the sheep which have gone astray and so on, I really am not sure, but we all who have the strength, should be concerned not to abandon all angry watchmen to their fate without a struggle.

 2007/11/14 7:20
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
Jonah


It should be noted that Jonah fled from his call because he did not want to intercept a well-deserved judgment. This ungodly motive is no different than that of the angry prophet who drives the lost sheep from the Lord through his condemning pronouncements. Restoration and mercy do not flow from an angry, vengeful heart – even if it is defending the cause of righteousness.

Quote:
we are not at liberty anytime to make the Word of God say what we want it to say to fit the occasion



Since we find no hint to justify of Moses’ anger when he reacted so strongly, we cannot assume that we are free to do that. It is simply a fact, and no doubt part of God’s sovereign program. It may be that anger in Moses had stirred him to take vengeance in his hands. This response is perfectly logical in OUR natural minds, and so why would we assume otherwise? Whether Moses heard from God as he claimed, of course, is the question. He may have indeed, and maybe at the time God was overlooking any weakness he may have had in order to carry out his swift judgment. We cannot deny that Moses’ anger led to severe judgment on himself later.

Quote:
…God's plea to leave vengeance to Him



This, of course is not merely a New Covenant idea. Rom. 12:19 came right from the Mosaic Law!

“Do not take revenge my friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for IT IS WRITTEN, “It is mine to avenge, I will repay,” says the Lord.” (from Deut. 32:35)

“Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” Rom. 12:21

God designed a far more powerful way to incite judgment and potential conviction of the sinner: “If your enemy is hungry feed him. If he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In so doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Rom. 12:20 According to C Keener “This may mean that one’s enemy may be punished all the more severely on the day of judgment” But also, such unexpected and assertive responses of care and tenderness towards enemies can be powerfully convicting. (Still the "returning prodigals" Carrol speaks of should hardly be viewed as our enemies!)


Note Moses’ change of heart after he received his punishment:

Moses accepted this judgment. After that he continued to faithfully lead the people. Later when they grumbled against him again, God himself avenged by sending poisonous snakes into their midst. When the people admitted their sin, Moses interceded for them “So Moses prayed for the people” Nu. 21:7.

By responding this way, Moses displayed a humble heart that was filled with love for the nation, in spite of their tendency to be rebellious. This compassionate response reflected of the heart of God.

It would seem that Moses ended up having a lot more mercy than Jonah ever did! Moses had grown in his faith in God.


Diane



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Diane

 2007/11/14 8:26Profile





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