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HIServant
Member



Joined: 2007/10/30
Posts: 172


 Re:

I echo your comments, MC, and express regret for words perhaps too quickly shared out of context. I have enough failures and sins internally that I could let a dozen or so other people take the rest of their life off from sinning. CHRIST said to the pharisee's, "Whoever is without sin, let them cast the first stone". Where then do we (Self included) gloss over HIS comments where are meant to arrest our thoughts and "think about it" and go right to our perception of what JESUS wants someone else to know or what they should know. As such, we just start chucking stones. I just posted on being burnt out on the health wealth and prosperity message having been offended by the quotes of others (Not on SermonIndex) telling me REALLY what GOD means. Unless one has walked in it, quoting Scripture to the wounded isnt the saave needed. I cannot pretend to understand your specific challenge but I know that the ratio of two ears and one mouth means I should listen first to both the other person and to GOD before responding. I speak only to myself. May the LORD bless you this day.

As HIS servant in your service,
HIServant


_________________
Whitney

 2007/11/11 0:23Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Rethink

Wasn't sure if this was the same author but had come across this elsewhere and mentioned it here;

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=1&topic_id=18583&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=Go] Your Thoughts[/url]

The accompanying link has something of a summary from the author of the book that Philologos mentioned. Found it very interesting as this matter is not one that I have found precisely cut and dried for all the variety of view point. I would also concur that just the idea of pressing further into this does nothing to degrade or demise the seriousness or sobriety that we ought to have over what has been established;

[i]Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.[/i] Mat 19:6

And MC, God bless you brother ...


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Mike Balog

 2007/11/11 1:01Profile
SONmind
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 11
Jacksonville, FL

 Re:

I pray that you didn't view my comments as judgmental or 'holier -than-thou', because the're not. I have been married and divorced twice (after 8 years, and 13 respectively), so I am the last to thrown stones as it were. However, my experience and pain, along with how the Spirit has ministered and taught me through the Word, is how I've reached my convictions.

When a marriage ends it is excruciating (or should be)for the man/woman, however most of the time, the most devastated parties are the ones who have no say in the matter: namely our children. Both scripture and secular research support the devastating long-term consequences of the family breakup.

Fatherlessness is a major contributor to promiscuity, out of wedlock births, criminal acts, underperformance academically, emotional issues, greater divorce rate among the children, etc. No wonder scripture states,'Fathers, don't provoke your children to wrath'. I know all to well there are no easy answers, but if both of us profess to know Christ and and possess His Spirit, there should be a whole lot less divorce than what the Chorch is seeing.

All I'm saying is we need to more carefully consider our ways...either 'we have been bought by a price...or 'my life is not my own', or maybe we are just blinded by false religion, perhaps...'lovers of our selves, and not lovers of God'...'covenant-breakers', etc.

Intens4Him, I don't know your situation... frankly,it is none of my business. I pray that you are finding comfort, healing, and peace in addition to the forgiveness and cleansing you already have in Him. There is no harsh judgment from me, only compassion...but there must be a return to real conviction about pleasing God in the Church. Please no more false religious legalism, but faith proven by obedience...besides our children and a lost world are watching...us.

The Lord Bless You & Keep You,
Harold


_________________
Harold Dixon, Jr.

 2007/11/13 13:18Profile









 Re:

.
I am finding comfort and healing but it's slow coming sometimes. I am definitely not the same person I was when I was divorced. The Lord really has brought me through some rough patches and I've grown so much in Him.

No one knows better than a divorced Christian what the Scripture says about divorce (we live it, we breath it, it echo's continously in our mind like a video on constant replay). Well meaning Christians need to realize that the Scripture says "the letter killeth" (2 Cor 3.6). Scriptures about divorce have been hammered home so many times and I'm not just speaking of SI but in churches throughout America. I visited a church a couple of months ago and the pastor spoke of going from house to house that weekend and ran into an older man (60ish) that broke his heart. The man told him that his church sounded like a good one but he could never go because he was divorced. Tim tried to talk to him but he had heard for years and he had been beaten to death by the letter of the word.

Harold, I too, want people to consider their ways and their words. Someone reminded me of a Don Francisco quote,

Quote:
we are in danger of making divorce the second unforgivable sin.
~ Don Francisco


It's my firm belief that the church is killing it's wounded or at the very least, kicking them to the ditch to lick their wounds and heal themselves. This is NOT Bible...
Quote:
Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.
~Galatians 6.1 NAS95


To me this means, that if you even THINK you're spiritual - it's your job (not someone elses) to restore that person in a spirit of gentleness and meekness. Not kick them out of church or make them feel more ashamed than they already do. But most people (& you know who you are), right now you're thinking of worst case scenario to spout back to me!!! Without realizing that most divorces AREN'T the worst case scenario.

I still want to know that if God called us (divorced people) before we ever sinned so miserably, then He had hope in us, so why can't the rest of the church?
Quote:
I know all to well there are no easy answers, but if both of us profess to know Christ and and possess His Spirit, there should be a whole lot less divorce than what the Chorch is seeing.


Well, Harold, it's sad to say but I professed Christ AND possessed His Holy Spirit before I was divorced... oh for about 20 years. I realize now that I was more of a carnal Christian than I ever realized then. But my guilt and shame almost drove me to suicide but Christ didn't allow that BECAUSE He has a plan (a calling) for me and what most Christians would call a failure of a life. I'm learning it more and more everyday that there is NO condemation in Christ, no matter who tries to put it on me.

In my perfect world (if there was one!! HA!), each and every Christian would know that LOVE does indeed cover a multitude of sin (1 Peter 4.8).

 2007/11/13 19:36
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Interesting topic. I would like to ad, or ask questions. So please be patient and try to understand that I ask and comment out of a true quest for understanding on this subject.

I came from a household where my mother was married and divorced 3 times, and my father was married and divored 4 times, never to eachother again after the first divorce. They are now both getting married again in the near future (not to each other). The first divorce, between my biological parents, was when I was 6 years old and the last was when I was 22. Neither parent is saved.

Yes, this was as confusing as it sounds. :-)

I understand divorces between unsaved people, even if I do not agree with it, but some questions are: what would posses a born again Christian to get divorced? Why would some Christians justify divorce between two Christians? Why do some Christians believe that it is ok to divorce?

Obviously I do not know the situation between Paula White and her husband, or others on this site for that matter, but come on. Her divorce, if repented and asked forgiveness, is forgiven, but why go down this path? I mean, what is she/he thinking the gain will be?

What is the GAIN of divorce? It does not gain anything. As stated earlier in this post, the only reason to divorce is adultry/fornication. There as no other justification for it. Why do some as Christians justify it?

As someone that has lived through multiple divorces (through my parents) and has now been married for 7 years to my wife, I understand that struggles come up in marriages. We have had our share of arguements and fights, but we both understand that no matter how bad it may get, divorce is not an option. This doesn't mean that we are better then others, for we are not, but we won't go the divorce route because it strictly IS NOT an option.

If the Lord set people up in a marriage, who are we to dispand it?


I am truly interested in people's responses to this. I have not read any old postings on this subject, so any comments for these questions would be appreciated. My questions and comments are not the most edifying, I don't know how asking these questions can be, but they are honest questions.

In Christ

Christiaan


_________________
Christiaan

 2007/11/14 0:01Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
No one knows better than a divorced Christian what the Scripture says about divorce (we live it, we breath it, it echo's continously in our mind like a video on constant replay)



Lisa,

I must disagree with you on this point. I personally know many people who are divorced, and they do know what the scriptures say on divorce, but for most divorced professors of Christ, they do NOT know what the scriptures teach, that's why the majority of divorced get remarried in spite of what the scriptures teach to the contrary. What the scriptures teach is what R.A Torrey believed and wrote about: divorce for many is just legalized adultery.

If people "remained unmarried or were reconciled to their spouses" as the scriptures teach, there would not be this huge issue. The main issue in the church today is "legalized adultery". Yes, divorce is the initial evil in this because if one/both of the marital parties believed in God's eyes they were not free to "move on", that they were indeed "joined" together BY GOD for life, many marriages would not end in divorce.

In years past, the same sins existed, yet families stayed together........some admittedly were miserable, but that is where the ministry needs to come----to help bring healing BEFORE a divorce occurs. If a divorce happens, then Truth needs to be applied to the situation and we need to stand with each other through that pain and help the one divorced be able to persevere without falling into sin (adultery/remarriage).

As I said, I know many who are divorced. I don't think they would agree with you that divorced people are ostracized in church much today-----that is why it is such a problem in the church----because divorce is being accepted. Where I see the biggest persecution is with those divorced brothers/sisters who believe that their spouse belongs to THEM until "death do us part"----they believe the divorce did NOT dissolve their marriage in the sight of God. Many churches today DO teach that, so such saints who are standing firm in the truth and persevering are being ousted from their churches because their stance/belief makes the remarried uncomfortable. That is a sad, sad, thing.

I recently heard of a couple who tried repeatedly to have a meeting with their pastor on the issue of divorce/remarriage to find out what the church's stance. The pastor would not return their phone calls/emails. They finally understood that he was unwilling to discuss it with them, so they felt no option other than to leave that church. They then received a letter from the pastor "blessing" them on their way.

The enemy sure is having a field day in the church..........and sadly, we are letting him..... :-(


_________________
Cindy

 2007/11/19 7:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:

glorytoglory wrote:
Quote:

MY QUOTE:


Matthew 19:9
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.


Throughout scripture God says His people fornicated but how could they fornicate if He was married to them? Than I was thinking that it's possible that He used that word because they forsook Him completely. Notice that He gave them the bill of divorcement but did not send them away,they went away from Him.

I'm wondering if adultery means that you commit a one time act (or even more than once) but fornication means you have forsaken your covenant entirely. The word whoredom is also used.

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=02181

http://www.zhubert.com/ -(#4202 under find)

http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=4202

Im wondering if fornication is a word to describe those who just want to commit whoredom and not have a covenant???

Fornication is the only allowance Jesus gave to divorce.

It's possible that adultery and fornication are used hand in hand because you are first an adulterer before you are a fornicator. First you commit adultery and than you decide to not return making you a fornicator(without a covenant). Even if that person remarries they are still without a covenant but you are free. If you remarry than the covenant would be terminated.

God could not have ever of broken His marriage covenant to His people.

God also made a covenant to never again flood the earth. Who would doubt whether or not God would flood the earth again???

Is His covenant to not flood the earth greater than His covenant to His people???

Genesis 9:13 (King James Version)
13I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

BUT...

....yet He said they fornicated, well how could they fornicate if they were married to Him? Is it because the covenant on their part was broken but His was not? Isn't it only when the husband/wife refuses to return and they have broken their part of the covenant making them fornicators?




Isaiah 50:1 reads,

"Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away."

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."





Im going to do some more studying on this subject.

If Isreal was in fornication than who divorced who first? Would God divorce His people for no reason? Of course not. So we can only conclude than that Isreal forsook God first making them fornicators right? Weren't they married before the following verses?:


Wasn't God married to Isreal before
2 Chronicles?


2 Chronicles 21:11
Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.

2 Chronicles 21:10-12 (in Context) 2 Chronicles 21 (Whole Chapter)

Isaiah 23:17
And it shall come to pass after the end of seventy years, that the LORD will visit Tyre, and she shall turn to her hire, and shall commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the world upon the face of the earth.

Isaiah 23:16-18 (in Context) Isaiah 23 (Whole Chapter)

Ezekiel 16:15
But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

Ezekiel 16:14-16 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter)

Ezekiel 16:26
Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy sleeperdoms, to provoke me to anger.

Ezekiel 16:25-27 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter)

Ezekiel 16:29
Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied therewith.
Ezekiel 16:28-30 (in Context) Ezekiel 16 (Whole Chapter)

[color=0000CC]Im not divorced and remarried just so you'll know, Ive only been married once so this is not about me if you were wondering ;-) .[/color]









I posted this earlier. My question has been and still is what did Jesus mean by fornication? What is the true definition of fornication? Does it include all sexual immorality?





Here's another article:

Divorce and Remarriage



Divorce and remarriage is an area of intense controversy among Christians. It is admittedly a difficult and complex issue. Doctrinal positions on this issue range from "no divorce, no remarriage under any circumstances" to "divorce for any cause." We, at Consuming Fire Fellowship, offer this concise doctrinal statement which we feel reflects the spirit and letter of Scripture regarding this issue.

Marriage Is A Lifetime Contract In The Purpose of God.

Genesis 2:24 speaks of the man and woman “cleaving” to each other and "becoming one flesh." Thus, breaking a marriage is like rending the body apart.

The marriage contract is intended to be binding until death (I Corinthians 7:39).

Marriage is symbolic of Christ and His Church (Ephesians 5:31,32) who are bound together in an indissoluble union.

Divorce Is Sin And Should Never Be Practiced By Christians.

Malachi 2:16 says that the Lord hates divorce; the Lord Jesus reaffirms this in Matthew 19:3-9 (what "God hath joined together, let not man put asunder").

Nevertheless, should Christians be innocently abandoned and divorced by their spouses there is little they can do in our licentious and Christ-rejecting culture.

The Exception Clause: For Fornication.

The Lord Jesus names "fornication" as grounds for remarriage after one has been divorced (Matthew 19:3-9). However, what does our Lord mean when using the term "fornication?" The Greek word "pornea" translated "fornication" in Matthew 19 and Luke is used elsewhere in Scripture to denote "harlotry" (Luke 15:30); "incestuous relationships" (I Corinthians 5:1); "sodomite relationships" (Jude 1:7); "betrothal unfaithfulness" (Deuteronomy 22:13-21); and "marital unfaithfulness" (Proverbs 7:10-20; Hosea 2:2; Jeremiah 3:6-9; Ezekiel 16:28-34; 23:43-45), where adultery and fornication are used synonymously.

As shown above, the restricting of "fornication" to mean only "betrothal unfaithfulness" is to ignore its usage in other parts of the Bible.

Certainly, when Jesus cites "fornication" as an exception to His divine principles regarding divorce and remarriage He cannot be referring to single acts of sin. Why? Because elsewhere the Bible instructs Christians to forgive and to seek reconciliation, to love our enemies, and to even pray for those who despitefully use us. Therefore, we are of the opinion that what is meant in these passages refers to "perpetual adultery," or, being deserted by a spouse who then remarries another, thus committing continual adultery. There is no command in the Bible that marriage must be broken off for fornication or any other sin. There is a better course -- to forgive, and be reconciled (as in Hosea 1-3).

Desertion By An Unbeliever.

Desertion of a believing mate is addressed by the Apostle Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians (I Corinthians 7:15). The Apostle states that the believing mate "is not under bondage" in such cases. Again, we are of the opinion, based on the totality of Scripture, that "desertion" here refers to being abandoned, divorced, and the offending party remarrying another. Under these conditions the deserted Christian is not bound to the marriage contract.. This situation is in direct contrast to that of I Corinthians 7:11, where the "separated" believer is bound to the spouse. The same root word ("bound" or "bondage") is used in I Corinthians 7:27,39 where it refers to the marriage contract. Moreover, the incentive to remain with the unbelieving partner (i.e., that the unbelieving partner is sanctified by the unbelieving spouse) is nullified when the unbelieving partner deserts.

Two Christians joined in wedlock do not have grounds for divorce outside of fornication. Allowance is made for "separation," but there is no allowance for divorce ("putting away") or remarriage ("let her remain unmarried"). The reason stated is that the door must always be open for "reconciliation."

Scriptural Divorce Gives a Right To Remarry.

Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 24:1,2 which clearly states that a right to divorce means a right to remarry (Matthew 19:8).

Since a Scriptural divorce is a dissolution of marriage, the Scripturally divorced person is an unmarried person. When a former partner marries, the other party is automatically freed from the bonds of that marriage, regardless of where the guilt lies, and thus is free to remarry.

Remarriage is not permitted for desertion of a believer by a believer, unless the deserting party remarries (thus committing adultery and breaking the marriage bond).

Remarriage is not permitted in the absence of fornication or desertion of a believer by a believer where the divorced partner is still living.

Remarriage is permitted when a former divorced partner is deceased.



Moral Failure, When Duly Repented Of, Cannot Bar The Offended From Fellowship.

When a person comes to Christ, he is forgiven of all failures in life, moral or otherwise (II Corinthians 5:17). Human obligations may continue, however. If he is divorced and remarried before salvation, he should remain in that new marriage, since to remarry the former spouse (even if possible) would be an abomination (Deuteronomy 24:3,4). If he is divorced without Scriptural cause and has not remarried and his spouse is not remarried, he may be reconciled to the former spouse or remain unmarried.

Unscripturally divorced persons or unscripturally remarried persons should not be barred from church fellowship if there is clear evidence of repentance.

The right hand of fellowship may be denied for those who deliberately obtain an unscriptural divorce or remarriage against counsel. When considering a divorced person for an official church position, the Elders must weight the facts of each case in order to determine eligibility.

Sanctity of Marriage.

We are as fully committed to the sacred character of marital commitments as other believers. We join with them in deploring the high divorce rate and the disintegration of family life. Our view of the Scriptures is not a careless yielding to the spirit of modern life, but a conscientious examination of the entire teaching of God's Word on this subject. Let us hope our Scriptural conscience is respected by those of differing views.


http://www.consumingfirefellowship.org/Divorce%20And%20Remarriage.htm




 2007/11/19 8:18









 Re: TIME Magazine: "An Evangelical Rethink of Divorce?"


glorytoglory said

Quote:
My question has been and still is what did Jesus mean by fornication? What is the true definition of fornication? Does it include all sexual immorality?

In general terms it does include [i]everything[/i]. No sexual perversion is excluded by the term.

In Matthew, Jesus chooses to describe the woman as one whose marriage has already been consummated, when He says to the Pharisees, that a man may not put his wife away [i]except[/i] she has committed sexual immorality. The word He uses for 'woman' automatically rules out the possibility of His meaning only a sexual liaison between betrothal and consummation.

 2007/11/20 22:21









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

glorytoglory said
Quote:
My question has been and still is what did Jesus mean by fornication? What is the true definition of fornication? Does it include all sexual immorality?

In general terms it does include [i]everything[/i]. No sexual perversion is excluded by the term.

In Matthew, Jesus chooses to describe the woman as one whose marriage has already been consummated, when He says to the Pharisees, that a man may not put his wife away [i]except[/i] she has committed sexual immorality. The word He uses for 'woman' automatically rules out the possibility of His meaning only a sexual liaison between betrothal and consummation.





Wow, I was just thinking, Jesus said the Pharasees put them away in the OT FOR EVERY CAUSE BECAUSE OF THE HARDNESS OF THEIR HEARTS. GOD ON THE OTHER HAND PUT THEM AWAY FOR FORNICATION, ADULTERY AND WHOREDOM AND WE KNOW THAT GOD DOES NOT HAVE A HARD HEART. IF WE KNOW THAT GOD DOES NOT HAVE A HARD HEART AND HE PUT HIS PEOPLE AWAY FOR THESE SAME REASONS THAN THAT ONLY BRINGS CONFIRMATION TO ME THAT FORNICATION DOES MEAN ALL SEXUAL IMMORALITY:

Matthew 19:7-8
7They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

GOD PUT AWAY ISREAL FOR FORNICATION, ADULTERY, WHOREDOM AND WE KNOW THAT GOD DOES NOT HAVE A HARD HEART. God would not do something that was not acceptable.

Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

Jeremiah 3:7-9
7And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

9And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.


Doesn't that make sense?







 2007/11/20 23:02









 Re:


Ok. correction I found fornication mentioned in the law but adultery is also mentioned:


13If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,

14And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:

15Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:

16And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;

17And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

18And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

19And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

20But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

21Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

22If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

23If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

26But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

27For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

30A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt.


 2007/11/21 0:15





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