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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Pelagius & Pelagianism

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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
whyme wrote:
Your will is a slave to its desires.

Yes, and one may be persuaded to re-evaluate his desires.
Quote:
whyme wrote:
He always chooses according to his nature and according to the desires of his heart.

"How can it be proper to call sin by that name if, like other natural things, it cannot be avoided, since all sin is to be attributed to the free choice of the will, not the defects of nature."
Quote:
whyme wrote:
Man is not just unwilling to choose God, he unceasingly desires the contrary.

Again, one may be persuaded.
Quote:
whyme wrote:
The problem is always with the heart, not the mind. Making a bootstrap change to the desires of his heart, a man is unable to do.

Why?
Quote:
He needs first and foremost a change of or a new heart, not a change of mind; that comes later.

A change of heart is a reversal of one's feelings, intentions, opinions, attitude, or feelings. etc.
Again, persuatipon.
Quote:
whyme wrote:
None seeks after Him. Staggering odds for the free will crowd to overcome.

However, men do seek the truth and find God in the prosses.
Example:
Walid Whoebat, Former PLO Terrorist who speaks out for Israel. He tryed converting his wif to Islam and found that Christ is God. He was persuaded of the truth.
Quote:
whyme wrote:
If Adam and Eve in their moral purity [b]couldn't[/b] overcome the devil and their own desires...

They were very able to overcome the devil, they only chose not to.
Quote:
whyme wrote:
please tell me how natural man and a little wooing are going to make you or me fare any better

Integrity.

 2007/10/30 14:33Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
But, notice that is is our part to abide.

Brother have you ever heard or seen a branch striving to "abide" in the vine it is attached to?

Your taking an analogy to far now.
Why els would Christ tell us to abide if it wasn't our part?

Quote:
It is liberating when one realizes this truth, and obeys from a childlike love rather than a slavish fear of reprimand.

Who said anything about a slavish fear of reprimand?

 2007/10/30 14:54Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
But, notice that is is our part to abide.
every day we must choose to walk after the spirit that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us.



This is true, but this is not what Pelagius believed. This man denied the doctrine of Original Sin (pollution) and did not appreciate the inadequacy of the Law to achieve and restore the glory of God that man had fallen from in the Garden and since. Obedience to the Law does not restore man to the glory and image of God. Only regeneration can do that. The danger of Pelagius and Finney is that they taught that regeneration as it is known in the reformed tradition is unnecessary. It lends to the notion that men do not need regeneration- they only need repentance. But this does not square at all with John 3:3, Matthew 3:10 and a host of other passages that clearly teach that men stands in need of regeneration.

The reality is, Augustine and others over stated the depth of man's depravity so as to make man a slave to Sin in the absolute sense- like a person demon possessed or worse. the reaction to this was an [i]over-reaction[/i] and stated man could completely obey God so as to no longer fall short of His glory. What is [i]lost[/i] in the debate is the essential transformation required to make a thorn bearing tree a fruit tree. Whether one 'could' obey God is not the issue. the issue is that God needed to deal with the Sin that corrupted man's nature so as to cause a bent towards sinning.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/10/30 15:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:
the reaction to this was an over-reaction and stated man could completely obey God so as to no longer fall short of His glory.



so true... if someone is in error on the left, we often go to the opposite hand error to "make it even" :0)

In Christ - Jim

 2007/10/30 15:39









 Re:

The Early Church Fathers all affirmed freewill and the doctrine of original sin is not found in their early writings. But around the time of Augustine, during a time when men would not endure sound doctrine, the doctrine of original sin ended up replacing the doctrine of freewill.

This is what Finney said about the doctrine of original sin. All who believe in Augustinianism would be wise to read it:

"This doctrine is a stumbling-block both to the church and to the world, infinitely dishonorable to God, an abomination alike to God and the human intellect, and should be banished from every pulpit, and form every formula of doctrine, and from the world. It is a relic of heathen philosophy, and was foisted in among the doctrines of Christianity by Augustine, as everyone may know who will take the trouble to examine for himself."

Charles Finney, Systematic Theology, Lecture on Moral Depravity, page 263

It must be clearly understood that sin is an abuse of freewill. Sin is not the lose of freewill or the corruption of your nature. It is willful rebellion against God. Sinners are [i]criminals[/i] and not [i]cripples[/i]!

(PS. Robert, both Pelagius and Finney denied a physical regeneration and taught a moral/spiritual regeneration by revelation, which is precisely the type of regeneration that the bible teaches. The Spirit reveals truth to us and it is our freewill choice to obey or resist.

For verses on the Doctrine of Regeneration by Revelation, see: 2Pet 2:20, 1Pet 1:22, 2Pet 1:2-3, John 6:36, John 6:45, John 8:32, Titus 2:11-12, 1Tim 2:4, 1Cor 4:15, Ps 17:7, James 1:18, 1Pet 1:23, James 1:21-22, Rom 2:8, John 15:3, John 17:17)

 2007/10/30 16:27
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
(PS. Robert, both Pelagius and Finney denied a physical regeneration and taught a moral/spiritual regeneration by revelation, which is precisely the type of regeneration that the bible teaches. The Spirit reveals truth to us and it is our freewill choice to obey or resist.



Wow, they taught this in spite of Scripture teaching that revelation apart from the renewing of the heart only increases condemnation, and people actually listened to these guys!!!!

I'd like to see where Scripture teaches regeneration by revelation, because so far as I understand, the new birth is spiritual, and not natural, which makes it outside of what man can accomplish.

If the Spirit is even the slightest bit needed to re-birth a soul, then how can anyone say, "man is free to do as he will"?

But then again, Finney thought the cross was "divine child abuse", and that the Cross really did not redeem anyone, but only made it for men to get a clean slate that they were responsible to keep clean in order to be saved.

Jesse did your wedding only make marriage possible, or was it a certification of that marriage?

Does your wife have to maintain a legal standing with you in order for you to approach her as your wife, or because of your love for in the light of your marriage to her, do you grant her forgiveness? Is your relationship with her purely legal, or relational?

Interesting that God refers to Himself as Israel's Husband, and Christ is referred to as the Bridegroom.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/30 16:51Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
(PS. Robert, both Pelagius and Finney denied a physical regeneration and taught a moral/spiritual regeneration by revelation, which is precisely the type of regeneration that the bible teaches. The Spirit reveals truth to us and it is our freewill choice to obey or resist.

I'd like to see where Scripture teaches regeneration by revelation...

Act 9:4-6

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Jesse did your wedding only make marriage possible, or was it a certification of that marriage?

I would say that the wedding made marriage to be actual and the certification legal.
It is the fact that there is a such thing as marriage is what makes marriage possible.

therefore the fact that there is an atonement makes salvation possible.

 2007/10/30 17:15Profile









 Re:

[b]The Doctrine of Regeneration[/b]

“The work accomplished is a change of choice, in respect to an end or end of life. The sinner whose choice is changed, must of course act. The end to be chosen must be clearly and forcibly presented; this is the work of the third person, and of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit takes the things of Christ and shows them to the soul. The truth is employed, or it is truth which must necessarily be employed, as an instrument to induce a change of choice.” Charles Finney, Systematic Theology, pg 275

“Truth; this must, from the nature of regeneration, be employed in effecting it, for regeneration is nothing else than the will being duly influenced by truth.” Charles Finney, Systematic Theology, pg 275

“Regeneration is nothing else than his embracing the gospel.” Charles Finney, Systematic Theology, pg 276

[b]The Biblical Doctrine of Regeneration by the Spirits Revelation:[/b]

Because regeneration is the Spirit changing a man’s [i][u]moral character[/u][/i] by [i]influence[/i], and not the Spirit changing a man’s [i][u]natural constitution[/u][/i] by [i]force[/i], the instrument which the Spirit uses is [i]truth to influence the will[/i] to change and not [i]omnipotence to force a constitutional[/i] change. Regeneration is the changing of a man's heart, that is, his motive and intention, his ultimate reason and aim for living.

[u]2Pet 2:20[/u] “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world [b]THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE[/b] of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”

[u]1Pet 1:22[/u] “Seeing ye have [b]PURIFIED[/b] your souls in [b]OBEYING THE TRUTH[/b] through the Spirit”

[u]2Pet 1:2-3[/u] “Grace and peace be multiplied unto you [b]THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE[/b] of God and of Jesus our Lord, according as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, [b]THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE[/b] of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.”

[u]John 6:63[/u] “It is the [b]SPIRIT THAT QUICKENETH[/b]; the flesh profiteth nothing: [b]THE WORDS[/b] that [b]I SPEAK[/b] unto you, they are [b]SPIRIT[/b], and they are [b]LIFE[/b].”

[u]John 6:45[/u] “It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all [b]TAUGHT[/b] of God. Everyman therefore that hath [b]HEARD[/b], and hath [b]LEARNED[/b] of the Father, cometh unto me.”

[u]John 8:32[/u] “And ye shall [b]KNOW[/b] the [b]TRUTH[/b], and the [b]TRUTH[/b] shall make you [b]FREE.[/b]”

[u]Titus 2:11-12[/u] “For the grace of God that [b]BRINGETH SALVATION[/b] has [b]APPEARED[/b] unto all men, [b]TEACHING US[/b] that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world.”

[u]1Tim 2:4[/u] "Who will have all men to be [b]SAVED[/b], and to come unto the [b]KNOWLEDGE[/b] of the [b]TRUTH[/b]."

[u]1Cor 4:15[/u] “For though ye have ten thousand [b]INSTRUCTORS[/b] in Christ, yet have yet not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have [b]BEGOTTEN[/b] you through the [b]GOSPEL[/b].”

[u]Ps 17:7[/u] “[b]SHOW[/b] thy marvelous loving-kindness, O thou that [b]SAVEST[/b]”

[u]James 1:18[/u] “Of his own will [b]BEGAT[/b] he us [b]WITH THE WORD OF TRUTH[/b], that we should be a king of firstfruits of his creatures.”

[u]1Pet 1:23[/u] “[b]BEING BORN AGAIN[/b], not of corruptible seed, but of the incorruptible, [b]BY THE WORD OF GOD[/b], which liveth and abideth forever.”

[u]James 1:21-22[/u] “Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted [b]WORD, WHICH IS ABLE TO SAVE YOUR SOULS[/b]. But be ye [b]DOERS OF THE WORD[/b], and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”

[u]Rom 2:8[/u] “But unto them that are contentious, and do not [b]OBEY THE TRUTH[/b], but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.”

[u]2Thes 1:8[/u] “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that [b]KNOW[/b] not God, and that [b]OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL[/b] of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

[u]John 15:3[/u] “Now ye are [b]CLEAN THROUGH THE WORD[/b] which I have [b]SPOKEN[/b] unto you.”

[u]1Pet 4:17[/u] “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that [b]OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL[/b] of God?”

[u]John 17:17[/u] “[b]SANCTIFY[/b] them [b]THROUGH THY TRUTH[/b]: thy [b]WORD[/b] is [b]TRUTH[/b].”

[u]Rom 6:17[/u] “But God be thanked, that ye were servants of sin, but ye have [b]OBEYED[/b] from the heart that form of [b]DOCTRINE[/b] which was [b]DELIVERED[/b] unto you.”

 2007/10/30 18:04
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Act 9:4-6



Hmmm, I don't see it(pun intended)

You cannot take that and apply it universally, especially when there are a host of verses that speak to the opposite.

Quote:
therefore the fact that there is an atonement makes salvation possible.



Salvation may be possible, but it must be applied in order for it to be actual, and effectual. This work of application is done by the Holy Spirit through the preaching of Christ crucified and raised from the dead.

In the work of salvation there is a wonderful united work of the trinity-
-The Father has chosen those who will be saved

-The Son purchases that salvation for those whom the Father chose

-The Holy Spirit applies this salvation to those whom the Father has chosen, and those whom the Son has redeemed.

It is a glorious, and wonderful work!!!!!!!!


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/30 18:06Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
It must be clearly understood that sin is an abuse of freewill. Sin is not the lose of freewill or the corruption of your nature. It is willful rebellion against God. Sinners are criminals and not cripples!



I affirm that sinners are [i]both[/i] criminals and cripples. By His stripes we were [i]healed[/i] (Isaiah 53). 'Heal' here in the Hebrew means to make whole or to [i]cure[/i]. This is said to be the working of christ accomplished upon the Cross and is made available to us as we are baptized into Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit.

Quote:
(PS. Robert, both Pelagius and Finney denied a physical regeneration and taught a moral/spiritual regeneration by revelation, which is precisely the type of regeneration that the bible teaches. The Spirit reveals truth to us and it is our freewill choice to obey or resist.



I would deny a physical regeneration also and affirm a future [i]resurrection[/i] instead. This is why we still die. There is somewhat yet to be dealt with after regeneration. However, men are by [i]nature[/i] the children of wrath (Eph. 2) prior to regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

As you know, Finney believed that there was a sense in which God, man and the truth are said to bring about regeneration or a 'new heart'(as he would say). I affirm that regeneration is a one time crisis event in which God reveals Himself to a person (generally through the preaching of the Gospel) and they respond rightly to Him. The person [i]receives[/i] the Holy Spirit and is made a 'new' creature. All old things pass away and all become new. This is the "ye must be born again" of John 3:3.

When we are baptized into Jesus Christ we are baptized into His death. This is what renders us dead to Sin. How shall we that are dead to Sin live any longer therein? We are dead to Sin and alive unto God through our having been baptized into Him by the Spirit. Water baptism is the symbol of this event (and an act of obedience).


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/10/30 19:33Profile





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