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 Pelagius & Pelagianism

[u][b]GOOD PELAGIUS QUOTES:[/b][/u]

"Obedience results from a decision of the mind, not the substance of the body." Pelagius

"those who are unwilling to correct their own way of life appear to want to correct nature itself instead." Pelagius

"And lest, on the other hand, it should be thought to be nature's fault that some have been unrighteous, I shall use the evidence of the scripture, which everywhere lay upon sinners the heavy weight of the charge of having used their own will and do not excuse them for having acted only under constraint of nature." Pelagius

"Yet we do not defend the good of nature to such an extent that we claim that it cannot do evil, since we undoubtedly declare also that it is capable of good and evil; we merely try to protect it from an unjust charge, so that we may not seem to be forced to do evil through a fault of our nature, when, in fact, we do neither good nor evil without the exercise of our will and always have the freedom to do one of the two, being always able to do either." Pelagius

"Nothing impossible has been commanded by the God of justice and majesty...Why do we indulge in pointless evasions, advancing the grailty of our own nature as an objectionto the one who commands us? No one knows better the true measure of our strength than he who has given it to us nor does anyone understand better how much we are able to do than he who has given us this very capacity of ours to be able; nor has he who is just wished to command anything impossible or he who is good intended to condemn a man for doing what he could not avoid doing." Pelagius

"Grace indeed freely discharges sins, but with the consent and choice of the believer." Pelagius

"Our most excellent creator wished us to be able to do either but actually to do only one, that is, good, which he also commanded, giving us the capacity to do evil only so that we might do hi will by exercising our own. That being so, this very capacity to do evil is also good - good, I say, because it makes the good part better by making it voluntary and independent, not bound by necessity but free to decide for itself." Pelagius

"Is it possible then possible for a man not to sin? Such a claim is indeed a hard one and a bitter pill for sinners to swallow; it pains the ears of all who desire to live unrighteously. Who will find it easy now to fulfil the demands of righteousness, when there are some who find it hard even to listen to them?" An unknown Pelagian

"When will a man guilty of any crime or sin accept with a tranquil mind that his wickedness is a product of his own will, not of necessity, and allow what he now strives to attribute to nature to be ascribed to his own free choice? It affords endless comfort to transgressors of the divine law if they are able to believe that their failure to do something is due to inability rather then disinclination, since they understand from their natural wisdom that no one can be judged for failing to do the impossible and that what is justifiable on grounds of impossibility is either a small sin or none at all." An unknown Pelagian

"Under the plea that it is impossible not to sin, they are given a false sense of security in sinning...Anyone who hears that it is not possible for him to be without sin will not even try to be what he judges to be impossible, and the man who does not try to be without sin must perforce sin all the time, and all the more boldly because he enjoys the false security of believing that it is impossible for him not to sin...But if he were to hear that he is able not to sin, then he would have exerted himself to fulfil what he now knows to be possible when he is striving to fulfil it, to achieve his purpose for the most part, even if not entirely." An unknown Pelagian

"Consider first whether that which is such that a man cannot be without it ought to be described as sin at all; for everything which cannot be avoided is now put down to nature but it is impious to say that sin is inherent in nature, because in this way the author of nature is being judged at fault." An unknown Pelagian

"How can it be proper to call sin by that name if, like other natural things, it cannot be avoided, since all sin is to be attributed to the free choice of the will, not the defects of nature." An unknown Pelagian

-----------------------

[u][b]THE PELAGIAN "HERESY"?[/b][/u]

These are the "heresies" that Augustine viciously persecuted the Pelagians for:

[b]- The Doctrine of Freewill:[/b] it was not lost in the fall but is inherited by all children of Adam. Sin, holiness, and salvation are freewill choices.

- [b]The Doctrine of the voluntariness of sin[/b]: all sin is a personal choice, not a substance of the soul or body. Sin is unwillingness, not inability. Sinners are criminals, not cripples.

- [b]The Doctrine of Perfection: [/b] Since men have a freewill, all sin is optional and avoidable. Responsibility and accountability is according to ability.

--------------------------

[u][b]THE PELAGIAN GRACES: [/b][/u]

These are the necessary graces needed to live a holy life:

[b]- The Grace of Creation:[/b] when freewill was given to man

[b]- The Grace of Revelation[/b]: the enlightenment and illumination of the Holy Spirit to transform our lives. Sheep need a Shepherd, students need a teacher, Disciples need a Master.

[b]- The Grace of Redemption[/b]: forgiveness of sins through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, by faith alone.

-------------------------

[b]I recommend reading:[/b]

"Pelagius: Life and Letters" by B. R. Rees

"A Historical Account of Augustinianism & Pelagianism" by Dr. Wiggers

 2007/10/30 9:49
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re: Pelagius & Pelagianism

Quote:
Nothing impossible has been commanded by the God of justice and majesty...Why do we indulge in pointless evasions, advancing the grailty of our own nature as an objectionto the one who commands us?



Can a man yield the fruit of the Holy Spirit in his own strength?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/10/30 11:04Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
RobertW wrote:
Quote:
Nothing impossible has been commanded by the God of justice and majesty...Why do we indulge in pointless evasions, advancing the grailty of our own nature as an objectionto the one who commands us?

Can a man yield the fruit of the Holy Spirit in his own strength?

[b]John 15:4[/b] [color=990000]Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can you, except you abide in me.[/color]

Your part from your own strength is to abide in the vine, His part is to bring the fruit.

 2007/10/30 11:09Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
"Nothing impossible has been commanded by the God of justice and majesty...Why do we indulge in pointless evasions, advancing the grailty of our own nature as an objectionto the one who commands us? No one knows better the true measure of our strength than he who has given it to us nor does anyone understand better how much we are able to do than he who has given us this very capacity of ours to be able; nor has he who is just wished to command anything impossible or he who is good intended to condemn a man for doing what he could not avoid doing." Pelagius



Except for the whole "love the Lord thy God, and your neighbor as yourself."

Or any of the other commandments, that are broken by even God's people on a almost daily basis.

If you really stop to consider the depth of sin, and see how I do not love God every moment of every day, because there are times when my heart fixes itself upon other things. Things like my wife, what I will eat etc. Though these are not evil in themselves, they are breaking the commandment, and apart from Christ and His intercession for me, I would have no hope.

I know it is popular within modern Pelagian circles to not call sin sin, but rather mistakes, or some other name to avoid the truth that they sin. How horrible the bondage must be, to be constantly lying not just before man, but before the great and gracious God who would abundantly pardon every sin. Sadly many delude themselves into thinking that is some special holiness to be had here on Earth, as if glory were obtainable now, and they pass by the greatest gift, Christ Himself, because they can do it on their own.

Pelagius also believed that Christ was not the only man to have lived a perfect life too.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/10/30 11:40Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I posted this in another thread, but it seems to have some bearing upon this topic as well, so here you go.

Quote:
Now I would like to put forth an illustration for you and logic(if he chooses)to look at and give feedback.

Let us suppose a man has fallen into debt. He cannot repay this debt as he has nothing to pay with, he is utterly poor.

A bill collector comes calling, and says to the man, "you must pay the debt or you shall be punished."

To which the man replies, "Sir, I have nothing to pay with, please let me go free."

Now, is the bill collector unjust for demanding that which is impossible for the man to pay?

Or is the bill collector just for seeking the justice of what was demanded by the law, and the man a law breaker for not doing what was required by the law?

Now I think we agree that every man is guilty before God through the Law, and thus God is not unjust to demand what men cannot do, for man could do it before the fall. The effects of the fall, and the imputing of sin are clear.

Just so we understand that sin is not just counted against us because of imitation alone, but because of imputation, I ask you to look at the following truth which is observed in our daily lives.

Infants are subject to the effects of sin. They feel pain, they suffer illness, and they also die. Yet what sin has an infant committed? If they are unable to commit sin, yet suffer sin's effects, are they not guilty as well? If they are guilty, not because they have committed sin, then why? Does this not show that Adam's sin has been imputed to the world?

Your feedback is appreciated, and I wish to thank you, and may God continue to bless you through Christ Jesus our Lord.



To follow this up, here is something else to consider-
If a judge sentences criminals to suffer the effects of the penalty for breaking the law, is that judge unjust?

Do not the effects of a broken law clearly show that there is guilt? For there would be no penalty if in fact there were no crime committed.

So we see that God is in no way unjust, nor is man untainted from Adam's sin imputed to him thus rendering him unable to perform what God commands because of his sin, not because of God being unfair.

Of course any man who had the desire to follow God would have received that desire from God Himself, and not from his own fallen nature.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/30 11:52Profile









 Re:

Man is a fallen, spiritually dead, morally corrupt, sin loving, God hating creature. In the very core of his being he is as opposed to God as the devil himself. He can not change and has no desire to do so, he loves a lie, and will do everything in his power to restrain and supress any and every truth about God. Because the more he knows about God the more he hates him, because God is rightouss and man is evil...

~Paul Washer

 2007/10/30 11:53
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
"Nothing impossible has been commanded by the God of justice and majesty...Why do we indulge in pointless evasions, advancing the grailty of our own nature as an objectionto the one who commands us? No one knows better the true measure of our strength than he who has given it to us nor does anyone understand better how much we are able to do than he who has given us this very capacity of ours to be able; nor has he who is just wished to command anything impossible or he who is good intended to condemn a man for doing what he could not avoid doing." Pelagius

Except for the whole "love the Lord thy God, and your neighbor as yourself."

Or any of the other commandments, that are broken by even God's people on a almost daily basis.

All the commands are posible as the righteousness of the law shall be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Therefore, even while our hearts fix themselves upon other things such as spouses, food and the like, the law is being fulfilled because we are after the spirit.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
I know it is popular within modern Pelagian circles to not call sin sin...

You are the one calling sin other than what it is by saying that one is guilty of a distant relitives sin(Adfam's).
You make sin to be somthing els when you say that one is guilty of sin before one even sins.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
but rather mistakes, or some other name to avoid the truth that they sin. How horrible the bondage must be, to be constantly lying not just before man, but before the great and gracious God who would abundantly pardon every sin.

How is one sinning while they walk after the spirit?
Furthermore, if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Sadly many delude themselves into thinking that is some special holiness to be had here on Earth, as if glory were obtainable now,

[b]2Corinth 3:18[/b] [color=990000]But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.[/color]

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
and they pass by the greatest gift, Christ Himself, because they can do it on their own.

We are attempting to say that the reason that God commands is because we are able to obey only through Christ. We are able to come to HIM as he draws of our own accord(with out "irresistable grace" or your so called "regeneration", but when we find the truth) to fullfill the commands.
Otherwise, the commands would be as rediculous as commanding a newborn to mow the lawn.
I seem to be telling you that many times, do you not think that commanding a newborn to mow the lawn is rediculous?
If so, why do you think that God would command us the imposible?

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Pelagius also believed that Christ was not the only man to have lived a perfect life too.

That is why he was deemed a heritic.

 2007/10/30 12:00Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
jimdied2sin wrote:
Man is a fallen, spiritually dead, morally corrupt, sin loving, God hating creature. In the very core of his being he is as opposed to God as the devil himself. He can not change and has no desire to do so, he loves a lie, and will do everything in his power to restrain and supress any and every truth about God. [b]Because the more he knows about God the more he hates him, because God is rightouss and man is evil...[/b]

~Paul Washer

This is most false. Because the more one knows about God the more one will love Him because HE is evidently beautiful and awsome!

 2007/10/30 12:16Profile
BeYeDoers
Member



Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

roaringlamb, your analogy is flawed. The man is not guily of not being able to pay the debt, he is guilty of getting in debt to start with. The command of the bill collector being violated is "pay your bills on time and don't get in debt." This is what we are guilty of...sin. We were commanded not to do it but we did. God has not commanded us to work our way out of debt. This would be an impossible command, for there is only ONE name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved...and that is by His grace through faith alone. It is our responsibility for getting into debt, not getting out of it.


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Denver McDaniel

 2007/10/30 12:25Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Quote:
This is most false. Because the more one knows about God the more one will love Him because HE is evidently beautiful and awsome!



Both scripture and experience deny this. Washer is correct. However...once you have been regenerated, your statement becomes true.


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Denver McDaniel

 2007/10/30 12:30Profile





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