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Smokey
Member



Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re:

RevBenjamin

In response to your post.

Rev 11:11 And after three days and a half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

Mat 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Mat 9:25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.

Luk 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
Luk 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.

As you know, there are several other instances where the dead came back to life. However this is not a resurrection, but is just as Rev. 11:11 states, for reasons only God knows, the Spirit of life from God enters them, and they stand on their feet.


Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

There is no time line on this verse, it could referring to the time at the end of the millennium as refered to in Rev:20:7-8

Book of Enoch
"1
The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be
2
living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed.

9
And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him. "

(EDIT: I do not contend that the book of Enoch has the same authority as scripture, I merely use this example to clarify my answer.)

Again there is no timeline on this, but seems to refer to the same event as in Jude.

You are right in regards to 1 Cor. 15. Jesus is truly the first fruit, being the first to be resurrected. Then those that are His at His coming, which is exactly what 1 Th: 4-16d-17a state.
"and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up"

As to why God chooses to do it this way, I do not know, all I know is that is how He SAYS he will do it, and I don't think it really matters if it makes "sense" to us or not.

Blessings Greg ;-)


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Greg

 2007/10/27 19:28Profile
RevBenjamin
Member



Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re:

Smokey,

I appreciate your response here, with scripture.

I know the word Rapture is not used in scripture, but the word translate is, as was used with Enoch and Elijah.

So, the possibility of the Church being translated out before the wrath of God comes to the wicked is not something that would have to happen [u]after[/u] the first resurrection. What would be the purpose? That was my question.

Enoch may very well represent those who will be translated out.

Immediately after the translation of Enoch, came the wrath of God upon all flesh in the flood, except for Noah and his family. Noah and his family could very well represent those saved during the tribulation period, to replenish the earth during the time of the Millennial Reign of Christ.

Blessings to all,

R.G. Benjamin

 2007/10/28 14:37Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 The Servants awaiting His Return from the wedding feast...

Dear saints
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose BLood we are Saved.AMEN.

bro David as you know, you and i don't agree on this matter but more than that, it is not a thing over which we have to break fellowship. Our Lord will do as He sees fit and will set us straight. You have brought up the parable of the 10 virgins in support of your view, and i was wondering what you would make of this one in luke 12:

[u][b]35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. [/b][/u][b]39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut F33 him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.[/b]

i have some questions which i hope someone may help me answer:

1)how come some of the servants aren't at the wedding?
2)at the wedding the master is served but upon His return home, He serves those who are waiting up for Him?
3)who are those who are then given charge over the Master's House because when He returns, He finds them doing what He asked them to do?

if we get caught up before the trib it's all good, but if we are to go through it and we are instead expecting to be caught up then we may have a problem.

we will very soon know when the day of our catching away is. Art Katz said that part of this notion has to do with Israel existing as nation and our erroneous view that this is the Israel of God when it isn't. He proposed, and i concur, that when Israel fails, the pre-tib rapture fails with it. When Israel is again cast out into the nations, we won't be able to say any more that the time is near because we have to await Israel's resettlement per Ezekiel 36. a careful reading of that chapter will let us know that Israel now isn't the Israel of God which we look at as a sign of our leaving this place as being imminent. in the advent of that crisis in the Faith, we will know what manner of Christian we are in our response to it. May we not be weighed on the scales and found wanting.

Grace and PEace are ours in JEsus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/10/28 14:46Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Enoch, Noah and the Flood

bro Benjamin
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Quote:
Enoch may very well represent those who will be translated out.



you know bro, before we get all happy about Enoch being translated out of here we need to consider what manner of man he was before God that God would so do. do you think you walk as closely to God as Enoch did, or as Elijah did? i ask myself the same question and know i'm not close...Enoch walked with God, not since Adam's time in the garden was such said of any man, do you know what sort of relationship that must have been like? if you're there, God bless you and i have hope that i shall be that close to God.

Quote:
Immediately after the translation of Enoch, came the wrath of God upon all flesh in the flood, except for Noah and his family. Noah and his family could very well represent those saved during the tribulation period, to replenish the earth during the time of the Millennial Reign of Christ.



Enoch was long gone before Methuselah died. Enoch was 65 when he had methuselah and we know methuselah lived 969 years, longer than anyone else ever did. After Methuselah died, the flood came. Methuselah apparently means "when he dies, it shall come" speaking of the Judgment of God, the length of time between his birth and death is God's Grace period. to use Noah's ark as sign of the rapture i think is dangerous because Noah wasn't saved "from" Judgment as much as he was saved through it and the 2 are different. Noah wasn't caught up like Enoch, Noah heard the screams of those people as the drowned...

it is my belief that the Grace of God is sufficient for us even in the day that He pours out His Wrath, God isn't careless, we will not suffer His Wrath "by mistake", God don't say "oops, my bad didn't mean to zap you" Even when Israel was Judged, Daniel was carried off into captivity in babylon, Ezekiel was also a prisoner and these men are models of Righteousness as God Himself says of Daniel that righteous as he was, he couldn't save his family, not even 1 soul beside himself.

it is also my belief that in adversity is when the truth of what we are comes out, how we handle difficulty shows us how much God has influence in our lives, if we fear adversity, we probably haven't walked with God long/closely enough to know that His Grace is sufficient so we would rather skip the test...if i'm wrong then i'll get caught up too so it's cool, if you're wrong though, there'll be more to eat than crow...you'll have to get in tight with God like never before coz people around you will leave the Faith left and right coz it's too hard...

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/10/28 15:11Profile
Smokey
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Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re: The Servants awaiting His Return from the wedding feast...

IRONMAN

In response to your first question "how come some of the servents aren't at the wedding", has anyone noticed that only the myrtered Saints are said to be resurrected in Rev.20:4??

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This might explain that>>

Blessings Greg


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Greg

 2007/10/28 17:46Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: The Servants awaiting His Return from the wedding feast...

IRONMAN,greetings to you also. The part that says'......looketh not for him............and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers'
He is speaking of his servants.Or believers.
to me this cannot be a post-trib because it would place this event in with Jesus comming with the white horses.
we know from rev. that the wedding proceeds the white horses
As always bro. i enjoy your discussions. you are a man of the word.

...David

 2007/10/28 18:37Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 getting somewhere...

bro David
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Quote:
IRONMAN,greetings to you also. The part that says'......looketh not for him............and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers'



i am aware of that part, the thing is though He is talking of believers who aren't walking the walk. Note that He says "those servants", perhaps these are those who have knowledge of GOd but deny the power thereof? i was homing in on those servants who were found waiting for Him that He then asks to recline at the table and then He serves them, who are those ones?

i'm not bringing this up for support of the post trib view but curious as to how you view this since it mentions the master and a wedding which He comes back from to His servants.

indeed we know that the wedding precedes the horses but at the same time, if millions (perhaps of believers) can be transformed in the twinling of an eye, i don't think the wedding requires 7 yrs for us to be up there at it, time doesn't pass in the same way in Heaven as it does on earth all the time. The Wedding Feast of the Lamb as the LAmb Himself was, is and is to come.

as always bro your heart comes through and i bless God for your contributions wherever i read them for i hear His Voice in them.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/10/28 19:59Profile
RevBenjamin
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Joined: 2007/10/27
Posts: 86


 Re: Enoch, Noah and the Flood

Greetings to you Ironman,

Quote:
you know bro, before we get all happy about Enoch being translated out of here we need to consider what manner of man he was before God that God would so do.



I believe him to be a man who had a personal relationship with God. It says of Enoch that he walked with God and in Hebrews 11:5 that he pleased God.

I hope everyone that confesses themselves to be Christians ( Disciples of Christ) do indeed have a personal intimate relationship with the Lord.

Anything less would only be religion.

As Christ is in me, and I in Christ, I can see no closer relationship imaginable. Jesus said in John 11:14 & 15 ...I do not call you servants, but *friends*.

As we are the Body of Christ, I believe in Ephesians 5, His Bride(His Church) we can find no closer relationship ever in the history of all eternity and all humanity, who have received the gift of His Grace, His very Life given to us as He laid down His life for us from the foundation of the world.

Yes Brother, I have greatly considered these things. My question to you is, have you?



Quote:
to use Noah's ark as sign of the rapture i think is dangerous because Noah wasn't saved "from" Judgment as much as he was saved through it and the 2 are different. Noah wasn't caught up like Enoch, Noah heard the screams of those people as the drowned...



I don't believe I used Noah as a sigh of Rapture, but suggested a type of those saved during the tribulation period.

Noah was certainly saved from the judgment God pronounced upon all flesh. Noah and his family were not judged...but saved.

Quote:
it is also my belief that in adversity is when the truth of what we are comes out, how we handle difficulty shows us how much God has influence in our lives, if we fear adversity, we probably haven't walked with God long/closely enough to know that His Grace is sufficient so we would rather skip the test..



Adversity is and has always been the mark of a true Christian regardless of when he walked upon the earth...from our brother Abel to those going through adversity today.

Now I ask you, if you have submitted to adversity from the moment of your New Birth, aren't you now finding His grace is sufficient? Aren't you now partaking of the fellowship of His sufferings? Those words were written nearly 2000 years ago by the Apostles, for Christians throughout the centuries, not kept in store for the tribulation period.

I don't believe the problem here is Christians being translated out before the wrath of God, but a peculiar understanding of our life as Christians.

If your only objective is suffering Christians may want to escape, my conclusion is any Christian at any time through out the Centuries who want to escape adversity have walked away from the true faith.

Jesus taught adversity to those who are His. The Sermon on the Mount also taught adversity.

I just don't understand your logic here.

Blessings to you,
R.G. Benjamin


 2007/10/28 21:57Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: getting somewhere...

IRONMAN,i do ,like you wonder about the 7 year period..It appears that the wrath of God is not poured out untill the last half of the tribulation period.
For now I am pre=trib and am assuming that position. I do feel that I am as ready as I will ever be should I go through the tribulation.
It appears to me either is awesome to the sold out bretheren.



Especially those 2 witnesses with fire comming out of their mouths.


....David

 2007/10/29 0:47Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 re

bro Ben
Greetings in JEsus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

indeed anything less than relationship is religion. That we have a close relationship with Christ as His Bride is a Mighty thing and indeed i have sought God on these things as i know you have. However as the Bride, this brings to mind some things about the Husband-wife relationship. i hope that we as Christians love Him enough to endure whatever must be endured on this side. That He suffered such a brutal death testifies to me that such may be required of us and so like JEsus asked JOhn and James, are we willing to drink of that same cup?Such deaths haven't ceased, the happen in China, India, Muslim nations, in Africa, all over the place and we may well be visited with such suddenly. The Bride is also concerned for her Husband's affairs, how concerned are we for His Righteousness, His Favour and to be more like Him?i fear that many of us though being married to Him aren't chaste nor as concerned with His affairs as we ought to be.

indeed Noah wasn't Judged, but he was there to see it and hear it all around him as he was in the ark. i see that as a sign not of rapture in the sense of getting out but being preserved by God in the midst of it all.

Quote:
Now I ask you, if you have submitted to adversity from the moment of your New Birth, aren't you now finding His grace is sufficient? Aren't you now partaking of the fellowship of His sufferings? Those words were written nearly 2000 years ago by the Apostles, for Christians throughout the centuries, not kept in store for the tribulation period.



i have and am. i am however concerned that some of us limit the suffering to what we endure every day in scourn, ridicule, mistreatment and neglect the physical brutality which often comes with the enemy's attack. The first few are perhaps a bit easier to deal with, but physical pain is another matter. i have found His Grace to be sufficient so much so that i believe it to be sufficient even in the face of such physical torture, it is proven sufficient each day in the stories of the martyrs who die daily for Him and whose stories are recorded. i fear that perhaps we have come to a place where we think that the physical aspect of it may not come to us so if it does, we may be found unprepared or unexpecting it.

Quote:
I don't believe the problem here is Christians being translated out before the wrath of God, but a peculiar understanding of our life as Christians.



what do you mean bro?

Quote:
If your only objective is suffering Christians may want to escape, my conclusion is any Christian at any time through out the Centuries who want to escape adversity have walked away from the true faith.



true this has happened.but like you said, adversity has always been the way to prove the Faith, my thing is what if the tribulation period is a time of trying of our Faith to see what sort of Faith it is? it's not that God will pour out judgment on us, we know it is reserved for the enemy, however, the enemy will retaliate against Saints of God and that is the persecution i am thinking will be used to try our Faith in an Ultimate way beyond what we would have endured till then. in the Revelation the word says that the beast went and made war with the Saints of God in Rev 13. who are these Saints? The ones who are martyred in this period along with those who have killed for Him in times past, the ones who didn't take the mark nor worship the beast are those who are found worthy to rule with Him 1000 yrs per Rev 20. Maybe these are those servants that are found waiting for Him when He comes back from the wedding?it is said of them that He puts them in charge of His house?

perhaps some things to consider?

either way i do believe we will find out soon enough and so if i am wrong i'll soon know and repent of it and leave the matter alone. if you're wrong and we find ourselves here what will you do? that's what really matter to me i suppose, what will you do?

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.
Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/10/29 13:07Profile





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