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 One True and Living God


Everett said, in the Who is JESUS? thread

Quote:
I know God is one no matter what, even when in heaven the lamb comes to take the scroll out of the hand of the Father. That completely boggles my mind but Jesus did say that he was in the Father and the Father was in him. The body of Jesus is obsolete as to that fact that it can't be added to make 2 persons just because the the lamb has two set of hands in heaven and the Father has two set of hands in heaven. The Holy Spirit is obsolete as to the fact that it can't add up to make three persons because the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God the Father which is of his own being.

I think we have the same concept of who God is but the way we describe it is where we don't agree.

Bro, I do believe you need to think with your spirit to tune into the unity in the Godhead.

The best way I ever saw it explained by a lay Christian is this, that rather than trying to fit the Godhead into 1 + 1 + 1 (which leads to the incorrect answer of 3), it makes more sense to think of Him as 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

What do you think of that?

 2007/10/23 22:00
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re: One True and Living God

Wow! I never heard anyone put it that way.

To go even deeper just as 1 times 1 is incapable of producing 2 or 3 (or a number higher or greater than 1) so is God. Even though God may be in the original Hebrew as plural and he has 3 distinct offices which he has manifested himself in he will always remain 1 for it is impossible for 1 to be multiplied by itself to produce a greater number like 2 or 3. Even though there is the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit, they all are 1 as to the same number (Ex: one number 1 vs 3 ones) and if you multiply the 1 by its own number 2 times you can't get a higher number.

Heres another illustration: We will liken God to a pencil ( I know it is horrible but just for the sake of this illustration). If the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were 3 separate pencils then they would be 3 separate pencils (three separate Gods). Since the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one they are of that same one pencil. They are the same pencil (Christ is of God and is God)( the Holy Spirit is the spirit of God and is God) You can divide the pencil into three half's but they are still the one pencil just divided into three parts for different uses. The top of the head of the one pencil would have an eraser but not a sharpened tip at the bottom. The top and bottom of the middle of the one pencil would have no eraser neither a sharpened tip. The tail of the one pencil would have a sharpened tip at the bottom but no eraser at the top. The head of the one pencil would need to ally with the tail of the one pencil because the tail would need a eraser and the head would need some sharpened lead. The middle of the one pencil could be sharpened on both ends thus creating a double edged sword-like pencil of the one pencil making it comparable to the Word of God himself who is quick and powerful sharper than any double edged sword. Of course this is just a theory, hopefully you can get my concept on how God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are of the same substance (pencil) and if need be extracted for our sake because of the immensity of God's substance in order so that we can see the different roles and offices God fulfills (that we might know him better in this) by himself throughout the ages and how he works salvation with his own arm by using methods that are beyond us for his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts higher than our thoughts.

Am i getting this? Did I properly apply this illustration?


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/23 23:33Profile
mizpeh
Member



Joined: 2007/10/21
Posts: 4


 Re:

My favorite Trinitarian analogy of God was written by Tertullian when he described the Father as the sun, the Son as the ray, and the Spirit as the apex in Against Praxeas.

But still the tree is not severed from the root, nor the river from the fountain, nor the ray from the sun; nor, indeed, is the Word separated from God. Following, therefore, the form of these analogies, I confess that I call God and His Word -- the Father and His Son -- two. For the root and the tree are distinctly two things, but correlatively joined; the fountain and the river are also two forms, but indivisible; so likewise the sun and the ray are two forms, but coherent ones. Everything which proceeds from something else must needs be second to that from which it proceeds, without being on that account separated: Where, however, there is a second, there must be two; and where there is a third, there must be three. Now the Spirit indeed is third from God and the Son; just as the fruit of the tree is third from the root, or as the stream out of the river is third from the fountain, or as the apex of the ray is third from the sun. Nothing, however, is alien from that original source whence it derives its own properties. In like manner the Trinity, flowing down from the Father through intertwined and connected steps, does not at all disturb the Monarchy, whilst it at the same time guards the state of the Economy.

 2007/10/24 2:25Profile









 Re:

Our - The Church's - greatest problem is when we begin to read the writings of others.

Oh, of course there are times when it can aid us in finding a clearer representation of a truth, that helps our minds to come to some point of understanding of a Biblical reality or Truth, but I believe two problems have come that have turned people from seeing the Tri-Unity or Co-Equality of The Three in One.

It can be shown through Scripture only - there's no question about that and my personal belief is that is the very best method, because it is His Living Word.

Why people are frightened away from the Triune belief is straying from Scripture only and having fear placed in them from some history or just the writings of others, past or present.

The second reason many have problems with seeing the Triune belief is because in their spirit, they have seen those who do believe it, take away from the absolute Co-Equality of Father, The Word and The Spirit, by over-emphasizing one against the other.
That has bothered me also and why I left the Pentecostal Churches, though I still believe in the Baptism and the gifts.

The cesstationists, have feared the Spirit - the Pentecostals have over-emphasised the Spirit and as such, taking much of The Glory and emphasis that Jesus Himself should receive, which is the most grievious thing in the Church.

So, many have over compensated and given it all to Jesus and saw the co-equality as making Jesus a "lesser god" than The Father. Like a todum pole in authority levels.

I suppose I have more sympathy for Oneness people because I've seen both of these in most groups I've been in.

But what is most important here, is to keep His Word the highest final authority in all things.

The Triune Nature of God is in There and can be seen or proved by it alone. Most other arguments can be taken down by another argument or analogy, what have you.
But His Word and it's grammar stands - and only choice alone on the individual's part will cause them to not choose to see or not see The Truth contained within it.
We are dealing with choice, yet because of the over and under emphasis of Jesus in the church, I do have a bit more sympathy for those who call themselves anti-trinitarian. They do have strong arguments that have truth in it - of just how equal The Logos/Jesus is to the Father and yes, Jesus is called the Father also, so that is where the confusion can come in.
But until He returns, we do have in The Word, the order in which God and Christ has drawn out the order of things, such as how we are to pray.

And to the penetcostals, how we are not to over-emphasis The Spirit.

And to the cesstationists and legalists, how we are not to under-value the need for The Spirit.

So, back to The Scriptures.

The Word of GOD is complete and is the only Divinely Inspired writing that we have. Thank GOD, His Mercy has protected it for us, through the ages.

 2007/10/24 9:47
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

Yes, let us get back to the word. For it is our only guide that is incapable of leading us astray. Let us study it, taste it, eat of it and swallow it whole like a scroll. Let us get full of the word, rightly dividing the word of truth.

"Oh God give us more understanding of thy word. We don't need any more stored up dusty head knowledge but bright illuminated quickening understanding of thy word so that when we express and explain the wonders and truths of God with other people the spirit in them would confirm to their spirit that what is being said is the genuine unadulterated word of truth. Amen"


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/24 11:48Profile
Everett
Member



Joined: 2007/5/3
Posts: 77
West Bloomfield, MI

 Re:

I came across this passage in the book of Job the other day and it really caught my attention. What is he trying to say? It seems so profound but I can't grasp it.

Job 28: 7-28

"There is a path which no fowl knoweth, and which the vulture's eye hath not seen:

8The lion's whelps have not trodden it, nor the fierce lion passed by it.

9He putteth forth his hand upon the rock; he overturneth the mountains by the roots.

10He cutteth out rivers among the rocks; and his eye seeth every precious thing.

11He bindeth the floods from overflowing; and the thing that is hid bringeth he forth to light.

12But where shall wisdom be found? and where is the place of understanding?

13Man knoweth not the price thereof; neither is it found in the land of the living.

14The depth saith, It is not in me: and the sea saith, It is not with me.

15It cannot be gotten for gold, neither shall silver be weighed for the price thereof.

16It cannot be valued with the gold of Ophir, with the precious onyx, or the sapphire.

17The gold and the crystal cannot equal it: and the exchange of it shall not be for jewels of fine gold.

18No mention shall be made of coral, or of pearls: for the price of wisdom is above rubies.

19The topaz of Ethiopia shall not equal it, neither shall it be valued with pure gold.

20Whence then cometh wisdom? and where is the place of understanding?

21Seeing it is hid from the eyes of all living, and kept close from the fowls of the air.

22Destruction and death say, We have heard the fame thereof with our ears.

23God understandeth the way thereof, and he knoweth the place thereof.

24For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seeth under the whole heaven;

25To make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure.

26When he made a decree for the rain, and a way for the lightning of the thunder:

27Then did he see it, and declare it; he prepared it, yea, and searched it out.

28And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the LORD, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding."

One thing I also noticed in the book of Job is that at the end God never rebuked the mysterious character named Elihu. I'm guessing Elihu was correct in his opinion or else God would have rebuked him too as well as Job's three friends. In fact the arguments Elihu uses at the end sound strikingly similar to everything God says to dumbfound Job. Check it out:

Elihu said in Job 37:14-24:

"Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God.

15Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine?

16Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?

17How thy garments are warm, when he quieteth the earth by the south wind?

18Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?

19Teach us what we shall say unto him; for we cannot order our speech by reason of darkness.

20Shall it be told him that I speak? if a man speak, surely he shall be swallowed up.

21And now men see not the bright light which is in the clouds: but the wind passeth, and cleanseth them.

22Fair weather cometh out of the north: with God is terrible majesty.

23Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: he is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: he will not afflict.

24Men do therefore fear him: he respecteth not any that are wise of heart."

Then immediately after the words of Elihu above God answers Job out of the whirlwind using similar words:

Job 38:3-16

"Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?"

Elihu seems like some mysteries character. He is not mentioned with Jobs three friends in the beginning of chapter 2. He is not mentioned at the end. Only when Job's three friends have nothing else to say and yet condemned Job then is the WRATH OF ELIHU KINDLED. He was angry they had found no answer and yet condemned Job and that Job in his own eyes considered himself righteous.

After Elihu was done speaking then suddenly God came and answered Job out of the whirlwind but where did Elihu go? At the end God says to Job's three friends the same thing it says Elihu was saying.

God:
"And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath."

Elihu:
"Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God.

3Also against his three friends was his wrath kindled, because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.

4Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he.

5When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, then his wrath was kindled."

It seems like after God took care of Job so that he repented of his self righteousness, Job had to pray for his friends so that they will be restored for their accusations against Job but where did Elihu go? Mysterious, huh? He is no where to be found. Elihu said that he was speaking on God's behalf. He spoke of a whirlwind coming from the south and fair weather from the north. He spoke of how Job spoke words without knowledge just as God said to Job out of the whirlwind. I don't know but there is a mystery between Elihu and the LORD answering Job out of the whirlwind. I got to do more studying but if God gives you insight on this. Please share with my. God Bless


_________________
Chad Everett Dalton

 2007/10/26 1:28Profile









 Re: One True and Living God

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

Bro, I do believe you need to think with your spirit to tune into the unity in the Godhead.

The best way I ever saw it explained by a lay Christian is this, that rather than trying to fit the Godhead into 1 + 1 + 1 (which leads to the incorrect answer of 3), it makes more sense to think of Him as 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

Hi Linn

1 x 1 x 1 = 1, That's really neat, as our American brethren would say!

I wonder if God's nature is best illustrated in mathematical terms by multiplication rather than addition. For example, Isaiah Isa 9:7 [i][color=000066]"Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end..."[/color][/i] to me describes an exponential increase, not a linear one - the [i]rate[/i] of increase keeps increasing!

Is the universe really expanding, faster and faster, as many astronomers believe? In the light of these thoughts it would make sense theologically!

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/10/26 13:23









 Re:

Quote:

Everett wrote:
Yes, let us get back to the word. For it is our only guide that is incapable of leading us astray. Let us study it, taste it, eat of it and swallow it whole like a scroll. Let us get full of the word, rightly dividing the word of truth.

"Oh God give us more understanding of thy word. We don't need any more stored up dusty head knowledge but bright illuminated quickening understanding of thy word so that when we express and explain the wonders and truths of God with other people the spirit in them would confirm to their spirit that what is being said is the genuine unadulterated word of truth. Amen"

AMEN!!!

Thank you Everett

See the pm I sent you...

Jeannette

 2007/10/26 13:25









 Re:


Quote:
JOb 387 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I thought this was interesting... 'all the sons of God'. I've not noticed it before.

 2007/10/26 18:19









 Re: One True and Living God

Hi Jeannette,

Quote:
I wonder if God's nature is best illustrated in mathematical terms by multiplication rather than addition.

I hate to say this, but multiplication is a short form of addition. It is the number 1 which behaves differently (as does water, in fact, biologically and chemically) than other numbers given the same treatment. I suppose God is saying He is base 1. 1 x 1 x 1 is 'one to the power of three' (I can't get a cubed sign from this formatting, I don't think...)

Quote:
Is the universe really expanding, faster and faster, as many astronomers believe?

Indeed it is. I had a fabulous conversation with my son recently, who has a strong interest in theoretical physics. He was explaining the 'omega theory' to me, which draws in words such as 'finite', 'infinite', 'reality' and 'intelligence', as well as expansion and contraction.

I've been planning to start a thread inviting any theoretical physicists watching SI who'd be prepared to explain how they see this theory - not so much in biblical terms necessarily - but as connecting with the truth of the existence of Jesus Christ, God Incarnate.

The way it was explained to me, there would necessarily be what could be called [i]an [u]alpha[/u] point[/i], (although that had not been so named within the theory), which would have to be of the same constitution as the omega point. There, in human terms, the Man Jesus in all His human flawlessness seemed to present Himself as the only possible key (alpha and omega) and to being able to dispel all dissonance within the [u]entire[/u] Universe. Amen. :-)

I liked that my son has no problem with the existence and perfection of the historical Jesus, and therefore, no difficulty with seeing how if He was God, this theory could still hold true. The problem it would leave for his atheism was ... nowhere possible to hide from the truth God [i]did[/i] indeed create [i]everything[/i].

 2007/10/26 18:54





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