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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : public prayer?

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 Re:

Jeannette:

my point is that many Christians ingore the plainly stated word of Jesus such as: 'when you pray go to your room, close the door and let only your Father who is in heaven hear your words' and 'do not swear, but let your yes be yes and your no be no." (these are not direct quotes, but are from memory.)

on the other hand they take literally the creation story in Genesis, which Jesus has told us is a parable.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. (Meaning Genesis)

The prophesy mentioned here is from Psalms 78:2-5

2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: 3 Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us. 4 We will not hide them from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.


The truth here is that much of the Old Testament stories are meant to be taken as parables, while the commands and instructions of Jesus are to be taken literally. SO many Christians have these two points jumbled up. They readily swear oaths in court, in signing documents for purchase of their homes, and in many other areas of legal activity. They don't know that many Quakers spent their lives in jail and prison to win the right to "affirm" in court and on legal documents instead of swearing oaths. Their religious services are filled with lofty prayers spoken from the pulpit.

and they continue to argue that observable, testable science is false because of their insistence on a literal Genesis.

one of the best evidences for evolution are vestigial organs and bones. these are things like wings on the ostrich, which cannot fly. they once had usefulness but because of evolution, the animal has changed in such a manner that these are no longer useful. thus they atrophy.

I mentioned the hip bones of the whale before. the whale is a mammal and its predecessors were clearly land animals. but they adapted, changed and now fit into a new ecological niche in the sea. here is a link to more about this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestigial#Examples


I should say that the Bible is a foundational part of my faith and i derive much of my faith from it. but just because some of it is written in a manner that I don't comprehend or cannot understand doesn't mean i throw it all out!

my point to Christian participants on this site is to get real. evolutionary and biological scientists are not out to void the Word or undermine your faith. they are extrordinarily self-critical of their own findings and continue to revise theories as new evidence is discovered. my point is also that Christians should pay attention to the instructions of Christ and stop accepting public prayer as a routine part of their worship services and stop swearing oaths in legal proceedings and documents.

bub

 2007/10/25 18:18









 Re:

Bubba, I'm struggling to understand you. You claim that we are ignoring Jesus' words by praying out loud and with others, but Jesus does not say anywhere in Scripture that the [b]only[/b] way to pray is on your own in your bedroom. If you are quoting Jesus and saying that 'when you pray go to your room, close the door and let only your Father who is in heaven hear your words', then I guess that you also only ever pray to God in your bedroom with the door shut?

Many times in the Bible, prayers have been said out loud. Solomon's Prayer of Dedication (1 Kings 8:22-onwards) is an excellent example. New Testament examples include Jesus Himself praying out loud in John 17, and Peter and John in Acts 4:23-31.

Quote:
evolutionary and biological scientists are not out to void the Word or undermine your faith. they are extrordinarily self-critical of their own findings and continue to revise theories as new evidence is discovered.



Please don't use scientists' self-criticism of their findings to back your belief in evolution up. They may be self-critical, that does not make what they are doing right.

 2007/10/26 5:39
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Man = evolution
Creation = God


I believe God.

Christiaan


_________________
Christiaan

 2007/10/26 10:03Profile









 Re:

Richard,

well i guess my concern is that it doesn't say "sometimes, when you pray", but "when you pray." moreover, the Kings example you provide is before Jesus' time, and the other two NT examples are not public prayer, but rather prayer within a closed group of believers.

I don't think it necessary to be shut up in your room, but rather that your prayers are silent and between you and God alone. the problem with public prayer is that it gives way so quickly to grandstanding. how many times have you heard prayer for world peace?? do you actually think God will answer such prayers?? those who pray thusly are speaking to their audience in order to gain their favor; they are not praying to God. the real danger is that in doing so they undermine the real power of and belief in prayer, which is a private communication between the supplicant and God.

bub

 2007/10/26 12:10









 Re:

Quote:
the other two NT examples are not public prayer, but rather prayer within a closed group of believers



You need to provide me with your definition of 'public prayer' then.

Quote:
I don't think it necessary to be shut up in your room, but rather that your prayers are silent and between you and God alone.



According to your own sayings, you are therefore disobeying Jesus.

Quote:
do you actually think God will answer such prayers?? those who pray thusly are speaking to their audience in order to gain their favor; they are not praying to God



A blanket statement which means nothing to me. I have heard many prayers by dear brothers and sisters asking for universal peace and endings of violence. Who are you to ban public prayer because you've decided that these types of prayer are never genuine?

Quote:
the real danger is that in doing so they undermine the real power of and belief in prayer, which is a private communication between the supplicant and God.



Give me a scripture proving your statement that prayer is 'a private communication between the supplicant and God'. And don't make it the one from Jesus saying 'and when you pray, go into your room...' You are using those verses to support your point (that public prayer is wrong), when it is evident that they do not.

 2007/10/26 12:26









 Re:

If anyone wants to continue the evolutionary debate, I started a new thread (don't think the title of this one can be changed.

I find it very irritating when people claim that Evolution is scientific. (Sorry Bub) Scientists should know better - even if they aren't Christians.

As Paul says in Romans 1, "professing themselves wise they became fools..."

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/10/26 13:00









 Re:

Richard, who is Jesus really addressing in John 17? his followers. he is telling them that His task is completed.

i ask you, what is the point of the passage in Matt if not instruction about prayer?

but i guess you win here, so okay, pile it up in public. as it says, you will have your reward.

bub

 2007/10/26 14:44









 Re:

Quote:

bubbaguy wrote:
Richard, who is Jesus really addressing in John 17? his followers. he is telling them that His task is completed.

i ask you, what is the point of the passage in Matt if not instruction about prayer?

but i guess you win here, so okay, pile it up in public. as it says, you will have your reward.

bub



If you think I'm discussing this subject in order to 'win' an argument, then I have nothing to say to you.

 2007/10/26 16:37





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