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pastorfrin
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Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 The Church Of Apostasy

THE CHURCH OF APOSTASY

By Pastor Chuck Baldwin
October 16, 2007
NewsWithViews.com

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." (II Thess. 2:3)

This passage of Scripture has been one of the most subjectively interpreted verses of the entire New Testament. Early Christians believed various Caesars to be the predicted "man of sin." During the Dark Ages and into the Reformation age, many Christians believed various popes to be the predicted "man of sin." In Arabia around 600 AD, many Christians believed Mohammed to be the "man of sin." During our War for Independence, many Christians believed old King George to be the "man of sin." During the Twentieth Century, many Christians wondered if Hitler or Stalin could be the dreaded "man of sin." Today, many Christians (including this writer) believe that the predicted "man of sin" is none other than a coming Antichrist.
However, regardless of one's interpretation of who the "man of sin" is, there is no doubt about Paul's prediction that before this man comes, there will be a great "falling away first." By "a falling away," Paul was clearly referring to a state or condition of "apostasy." Paul is saying that before the "man of sin" (whoever he is) will be able to seduce and deceive humanity, the church will fall into apostasy.
By definition, apostasy is the condition of those who once (in some degree) embraced the truth, but have now abandoned or forsaken it. Obviously, this applies only to professing Christians. Infidels, agnostics, and unbelievers have no profession from which to apostatize.
Accordingly, whether on a local or universal scale, before various men of sin can seduce and deceive their respective societies, the Church must first be in a state of apostasy. Saying it another way: churches that are sound in the faith, strong in truth, and steadfast in the Word serve as a resistance and retardant to evil men. No wonder the Lord Jesus said we Christians are "the salt of the earth."
That said, I am personally convinced that, by and large, the churches of America (regardless of denomination) are in a state of apostasy. And as such, offer little or no resistance to the men of sin who seek to seduce and deceive our people.
When a professing Christian President can openly acknowledge his belief in universalism and attack the supreme doctrine of Christianity, that Jesus Christ is the Creator-God become flesh, and there is not an uproar of protestation and denunciation from pulpits all over the country, the church is in a state of apostasy. And that is exactly what has taken place.
When interviewed by ABC's Charles Gibson, President George W. Bush revealed his lack of even basic understanding of Christian doctrine. Here is a verbatim transcript from that interview:
Q. "Do we all worship the same God, Christian and Muslim?"
A. "I think we do. We have different routes of getting to the Almighty."
Q. "Do Christians and non-Christians and Muslims go to heaven in your mind?"
A. "Yes they do. We have different routes of getting there."
Then, just a few days ago, President Bush, in an interview with Al Arabiya television, said, "I believe in an almighty God, and I believe that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God." In the same interview he said, "I believe there is a universal God. I believe the God that the Muslim prays to is the same God that I pray to. After all, we all came from Abraham. I believe in that universality."
Obviously, George W. Bush is a universalist. His confession is not that of a Christian, but that of a universalist. Any true Christian knows that there is but one mediator between God and man: Christ Jesus. Any true Christian knows that Jesus is the incarnate God--the Creator-God become flesh. Any true Christian knows that Jesus and the Father are one. Any true Christian knows that there is salvation in no other name, no other god. Any true Christian knows that no one has access to God except through Jesus Christ. Any true Christian knows that there is no God other than Jesus: that Jesus is the fullness of the Godhead bodily. That is Christianity 101.
With the above understanding and because President Bush claims to be a Christian, his statements should be regarded by Christians everywhere as an admission of apostasy and an attack upon the fundamental doctrine of Christ. Yet, there has been no reaction. No admonishments. No calls for repentance. No warnings to Christians to reject such heresy. No protestations whatsoever. Why? There is only one answer: the church itself is in a state of apostasy!
I will say it plainly: today's pastors and Christians seem to display more loyalty and devotion to George W. Bush than they do to the Lord Jesus Christ. This stands in stark contrast to Christians throughout Church history.
Has the reader ever wondered why the early Christians were persecuted by the Roman Empire? After all, the Roman Empire prided itself in being one of the most tolerant and pluralistic of all societies. People were free to worship any god they chose. There was complete freedom of religion throughout the Empire. An old maxim said that there were as many gods in Rome as there were people. Why, then, were Christians singled out for persecution?
The reason Christians were persecuted while people of other beliefs were not was not because they worshipped Jesus Christ. Obviously, Jewish leaders persecuted the early Christians because of their hatred of Jesus, which was due to the fact that He claimed to be their Messiah and Savior--a claim they vehemently rejected. However, the Roman Empire's persecution of Christians was for an entirely different matter.
Rome persecuted Christians because they believed that Jesus Christ was the ONLY God. Under Roman law, Caesar was a god, equal to any other god. Therefore, to be a good Roman, one had to worship Caesar. If one chose to worship another deity, it was fine. As long as he also bowed to Caesar. This was something the early Christians could not and would not do.

You see, from the very beginning of Church history, Christians believed that Jesus Christ was not a way, He was THE way; not a truth, but THE truth; not a god, but THE God. And for this declaration, for this conviction, and for this belief, early Christians were persecuted, imprisoned, and fed to hungry lions.
Yet today, the Church of Jesus Christ sits silent and still when the President of the United States, himself a professing Christian, publicly denies the central doctrine of Christ and embraces the pagan doctrine of universalism. Again, there is only one explanation: the Church is in a state of apostasy.

Of course, as apostasy spreads throughout the country, the men of sin will increase in strength and number. They will aggressively seek to seduce and deceive the people--something they are already doing. Furthermore, our Lord already instructed us as to what would happen when such a condition occurs. He told us that when "the salt have lost his savour . . . it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men." (Matt. 5:13)
No wonder Jesus asked the question, "Nevertheless, when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8) Finding faith and truth in the midst of apostasy would seem to be the challenge for every true child of God these days.
© 2007 Chuck Baldwin - All Rights Reserved


He makes a very important point, why do pastors and church leaders remain silent?
Why does the body of Christ, remain silent? When did it become acceptable to approach the Father by any other name then Jesus? Can revival come by seeking Allah?

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is where real, true, personal revival comes from.

Matthew 10:32-39
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. [33] But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. [34] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. [35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. [36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. [37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. [38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. [39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.


This is a vow of God; it has already gone out of His mouth, so it cannot be altered in the least. He, the One and Only True God, has sworn by Himself, that:

Isaiah 45:23
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Romans 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philip. 2:9-11
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

There is no other way and there is no other name than Jesus Christ. We as joint heirs with Him, Jesus Christ, can accept no other way, nor any other name than Jesus Christ.
It is time for the true Church to refuse to be ‘politically’ correct and shout Him from the house tops; Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by Him.

Jesus, Oh How Sweet the Name of my Savoir! Yes my Brothers and Sisters, His name is:
HE KEEPS ME SINGING

There's within my heart a melody,
Jesus whispers sweet and low,
"Fear not, I am with thee - peace, be still"
In all of life's ebb and flow.

Chorus: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus - Sweetest name I know,Fills my ev'ry longing, Keeps me singing as I go.

All my life was wrecked by sin and strife,
Discord filled my heart with pain,
Jesus swept across the broken strings,
Stirred the slumb'ring chords again.

Chorus: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus - Sweetest name I know,Fills my ev'ry longing, Keeps me singing as I go.

Feasting on the riches of His grace,
Resting 'neath His shelt'ring wing,
Always looking on His smiling face -
That is why I shout and sing.

Chorus: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus - Sweetest name I know,Fills my ev'ry longing, Keeps me singing as I go

Tho sometimes He leads thru waters deep,
Trials fall across the way,
Tho sometimes the path seems rough and steep,
See His footprints all the way.

Chorus: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus - Sweetest name I know,Fills my ev'ry longing, Keeps me singing as I go

Soon He's coming back to welcome me
Far beyond the starry sky;
I shall wing my flight to worlds unknown,
I shall reign with Him on high.

Chorus: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus - Sweetest name I know,Fills my ev'ry longing, Keeps me singing as I go.

Luther B. Bridgers 1884 - 1948


Jesus is the only way, how can we not proclaim His Glorious Name, JESUS?

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2007/10/19 13:31Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re: The Church Of Apostasy

Isaiah 22:12-14

"And in that day did the Lord GOD of hosts call to weeping, and to mourning, and to baldness, and to girding with sackcloth:
13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.
14 And it was revealed in mine ears by the LORD of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord GOD of hosts."

 2007/10/19 17:42Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re: The Church Of Apostasy

Hi pastorfrin...

I read over the article that you posted, and I couldn't seem to find the verbatim interview (between Charles Gibson and President Bush) in which the article is largely based. I did find quite a few anti-Bush websites that contained this supposed interview, but nothing unbiased source that contained the interview in question. Rather, I found [url=http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=193746&page=1]this interview[/url] between Gibson and President Bush, which seems likely that the supposed source is based (and taken a little out of context):

Quote:
While the president often refers to God during public addresses to his supporters, Bush's religious convictions don't always seem to reflect those of the conservative Christians who make up his political base.

In an exclusive interview with ABC News' Charles Gibson, Bush said he believes that both Christians and Muslims worship the same God.

"I think we do. We have different routes of getting to the Almighty," Bush said. "But I want you to understand, I want your listeners to understand, I don't get to get decide who goes to heaven. The Almighty God decides who goes to heaven and I am on my personal walk," he said.

When it comes to Osama bin Laden and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who both claim to be devout Muslims, Bush says he believes they are misguided.

"I think they pray to a false God, otherwise they wouldn't be killing … like they have been."

Bush says he doesn't believe the United States is in a religious battle when it comes to the war on terror. He says he wants to make it clear that America is fighting against groups of people who want to kill innocent people and not groups looking to practice their religion.

"I don't think this is a religious war. I think this is a war between evil people that are willing to kill on a mass scale; people that would like to end up with weapons of mass destruction, even kill more than they did in New York City and Washington, D.C."

While still less than what I would want to hear from the President, it still paints a very different picture from the supposed quotes on some of these violently anti-Bush Christian websites.

I often ask myself why so many Christians take it upon themselves to write such articles about the President of the United States? Do they truly believe that believers put more trust in this flawed human being than they do Christ? If so, I have never met a true believer who is guilty of such.

In my defenses against many such posts and articles, I have tried to make it clear that such attacks are often begun with a few facts and then carry on into (in my mind) dangerous presumption. Even in this article, after the author includes a supposed interview with the President, he makes a conclusion:
Quote:

Obviously, George W. Bush is a universalist. His confession is not that of a Christian, but that of a universalist.

This is just plain wrong. How can this author judge a man that he has never met??? This idea that President Bush is a "universalist" is simply without merit -- and contradicts his own public testimony.

It is sad that the leftists of the world -- who would love to make abortion upon demand legal, homosexual marriage legal, and even protect commerically explicit pornographic images as "free speech" -- attack President Bush BECAUSE he says that he is born again. On the other hand, there are believers who take it upon themselves to throw the same type of mud at him -- from a completely different level of judgment. The article continues:
Quote:
With the above understanding and because President Bush claims to be a Christian, his statements should be regarded by Christians everywhere as an admission of apostasy and an attack upon the fundamental doctrine of Christ. Yet, there has been no reaction. No admonishments. No calls for repentance. No warnings to Christians to reject such heresy. No protestations whatsoever. Why? There is only one answer: the church itself is in a state of apostasy!

No believer that I know would agree with the claims of this article about Muslims going to Heaven. However, there have been controversial remarks by men like Billy Graham that strike a similar tone to the interview in the link that I provided. Does anyone condemn Billy Graham as being guilty of apostacy? Well, that might be a bad anecdote because there are "BOLD" believers who feel the pompous liberty to do so! The fact remains that President Bush is not elected as a religious leader. He is a flawed human being elected as President of the people of the United States. Because of this office, he may sometimes feel the need (right or wrong) to NOT step on people's toes and VIOLENTLY RESIST the sacred beliefs of other nations. In his interview about the militant muslims, Bush went on to say, "[i]"I think they pray to a false God, otherwise they wouldn't be killing … like they have been[/i]." He also went on to describe his opposition to the beliefs of the far-left who wish to make homosexual marriage accepted. Where are these thoughts in the immense amounts of "Christian" anti-Bush propaganda? Instead, this author turns his attacks on people who defend the President:
Quote:

I will say it plainly: today's pastors and Christians seem to display more loyalty and devotion to George W. Bush than they do to the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have NEVER met a believer who is guilty of being more loyal to President Bush than our Lord Jesus Christ! Rather, I have seen fingers pointed at believers who simply did not completely accept the hateful rhetoric and slander poured out violently against the man. I may not agree with President Bush in all matters, but I shouldn't have to sit idly by while believers feel that it is their perogative to ATTACK, SLANDER and ASSAIL this man. Most of these individuals have NEVER attempted to write to the President or his Administration and find out the truth of the matter. Rather, they continue to write based upon the limits of their own knowledge (which often doesn't extend very far past various "conspiracy theory" websites).

I wonder: Do we pray for this man as much as he is attacked?

I was a very young man during the Clinton Administration. I never agreed with Clinton's views on abortion, gays in the military, federally funded pornographic art, sex education for 10-11 year olds, war in Somalia, inability to target Osama bin Laden (after several acts of terror -- one that killed a friend of mine aboard the USS Cole), socialistic welfare (free handouts from taxpayers, rather than the principle that "A man who will not work will not eat"), and of course, his sexual conduct in the Oval Office. But I spent hours and hours on my knees praying for the man! I silenced believers who went about publicly slandering him with mere hateful rumors. Like Christ weeping as he arrived to Jerusalem, I feel that we have no "right" to WHIP if we have not WEPT. But today's believers? They seemingly LOVE to crack that whip! Instead of covering the President with prayer, they assassinate the character of a man whom they have never spoken.

Why do I get angry with such targeted "spiritual" political rhetoric? Because most of the people who share it are simply sharing an opinion. But like the author of this article, they aren't sharing their opinion as an opinion. They share it as a FACT. This has grown ridiculously out of hand! How DARE a believer take it upon himself (as the author of this article has) and publicly make statements about a man he doesn't even know! Have we turned this forum that is dedicated to drawing people intimately closer to Christ and a true revival of passion for Him, and turned it into a forum in which we share our own personal views on politics, "non-violence" (ironically violent in character assassination), judgments about the hearts/motives/intentions of others, and our own foregone conclusions about religious doctrine (which we try to force as the only view that counts)?

We need CHRIST! How can we love the people of this world enough when we can't even love the people who claim to belong to Christ? Can you hear the weeping of my heart? We not only hurt people with our words -- BUT WE DO IT PROUDLY -- as if we are doing God a favor! We need to shut ourselves in with Christ until we can't hate (yes, HATE) someone so much that we would give ear to slander.

I apologize for my hurt. I have probably said far too much. Instead of copying it and saving it on my computer hard drive (like I usually do), I suppose I will just click SUBMIT and let this cry be heard.

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2007/10/19 19:38Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Chris,

Here is a small bio on the man you accuse of being a leftists, no; you let the readers assume he is a leftists, lumping it all together.


First Chris wrote:

Quoting Baldwin:

Obviously, George W. Bush is a universalist. His confession is not that of a Christian, but that of a universalist.

Chris said:
"This is just plain wrong. How can this author judge a man that he has never met??? This idea that President Bush is a "universalist" is simply without merit -- and contradicts his own public testimony.

It is sad that the leftists of the world -- who would love to make abortion upon demand legal, homosexual marriage legal, and even protect commerically explicit pornographic images as "free speech" -- attack President Bush BECAUSE he says that he is born again. On the other hand, there are believers who take it upon themselves to throw the same type of mud at him -- from a completely different level of judgment."

The article continues:

Quoting Baldwin:

With the above understanding and because President Bush claims to be a Christian, his statements should be regarded by Christians everywhere as an admission of apostasy and an attack upon the fundamental doctrine of Christ. Yet, there has been no reaction. No admonishments. No calls for repentance. No warnings to Christians to reject such heresy. No protestations whatsoever. Why? There is only one answer: the church itself is in a state of apostasy!
_______________________________________________


Chris,
Here is a little bio on Pastor Baldwin, for those who care to read it; followed by an interview at the White House, from the White House web site, not a conspiracy site.


I AM A CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIAN, AND THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT SCARES ME TOO

By Pastor Chuck Baldwin
December 15, 2004
NewsWithViews.com

“For those readers who are unfamiliar with my biography,

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/sketch.html

let me here provide a thumbnail sketch of my conservative bona fides:
I attended, graduated, or received degrees from fundamentalist Christian schools such as Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan, Thomas Road Bible Institute (now known as Liberty Bible Institute at Liberty University) in Lynchburg, Virginia, Christian Bible College in Rocky Mount, North Carolina, and Trinity Baptist College in Jacksonville, Florida.
I am currently in my thirtieth year as the Senior Pastor of the Crossroad Baptist Church (Independent) in Pensacola, Florida. I was the Executive Director of the Florida Moral Majority in the early 1980's. I was an active member of the local Christian Coalition.
I have marched and protested against abortion clinics. I have led several pro-life rallies and even led our church to construct A Memorial To Aborted Babies. I have conducted small and large (some drawing crowds numbering in the thousands) pro-life, pro-family rallies and meetings in the Pensacola area and in many towns and cities across the state of Florida.
When Ronald Reagan was running for President, I helped Dr. Jerry Falwell register more than fifty thousand new conservative voters in my state. I have attended White House functions with former President Reagan and former Vice President George H.W. Bush.
I supported and defended Chief Justice Roy Moore and his fight to display a Ten Commandments monument at a pro-Ten Commandments rally in Montgomery, Alabama and even on national television.
I am an annual member of the National Rifle Association and a life member of Gun Owners of America. I have been the featured speaker at several pro-Second Amendment rallies.
No one can honestly question my commitment to pro-life, pro-family, conservative causes. That being said, the Religious Right, as it now exists, scares me.”
Remainder of article at:
http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin205.htm
________________________________________________


What President Bush said: from the White House not some conspiracy site:


For Immediate Release Office of the Press Secretary October 5, 2007
Interview of the President by Al Arabiya

Oval Office, Colonnade, Map Room

White House News

October 4, 2007
11:35 A.M. EDT
Q Mr. President, it's nice to see you. It's nice to meet you. And how are you doing?
THE PRESIDENT: Welcome. Come on in the Oval Office. I'm doing great. Thank you. I welcome you here. And I thank you for the opportunity to talk to you about some of the decisions that I have made right here in this Oval Office. I'm honored you've come.
Q Actually, I want to tell the people of the Middle East that this is the place where big decisions are made. This is the office. But here it comes to my mind that how hard it is on you, Mr. President, to take like -- a big decision like war, for example -- is it that easy to take a decision such like war --
THE PRESIDENT: No, it's the hardest decision a President can make. And when I campaigned for office I never really thought about the decision to put men and women in harm's way. I never thought that that would happen. Circumstances changed, of course, and I had to make some very difficult decisions about how to protect our homeland and take action necessary to -- the actions that I think will yield the peace.
And so whether it be in Afghanistan or Iraq, I was -- I have made those decisions. And I will tell you they're hard decisions, because I understand the consequences. One of the hardest things for me is to meet with a mother. I met with a mother yesterday in Pennsylvania who lost her son in combat. And you know, those can be very tearful and emotional moments, and I understand that. And my -- the only thing I try to do is provide as much comfort as I can, and to assure the mom, in this case, that I thought the decision was necessary for peace, and necessary for our security; and that I valued the fact that her son would volunteer, and that I vowed to honor that sacrifice by achieving our objectives.
Anyway, this is the room where I make the decisions.
Q But would these moments -- I mean, these emotional moments, would they make you reconsider or rethink about what's going on in our area now?
THE PRESIDENT: Not really. As a matter of fact, I leave most of the meetings reassured that the loved one, in this case, fully understanding what we were doing. See, I believe that, one, it's noble to liberate 25 million people from a tyrant; two, that we cannot allow Iraq to be a safe haven for people who have sworn allegiance to those who have attacked us. In other words, I believe we must defeat the extremists there so we don't have to face them here at home. And three, I believe the spread of liberty will yield peace. And I believe the Middle East is plenty capable of being a part of the world where liberty flourishes. That's what I believe people want.
And so I leave those meetings saddened by the fact that a person has pain in her heart -- and yesterday she had pain in her heart -- but encouraged by the fact that her son died for a noble cause and a necessary cause. And that's exactly what she told me.
Q Actually, I want to thank you again, Mr. President, for giving us the opportunity to talk for the first time to the Arab world, to address them with the big concerns. I know we have a great deal of questions. I know you have a very tight schedule --
THE PRESIDENT: Sure. I want to show you the Rose Garden, one of the most famous areas --
Q It's a great chance for me. I heard, Mr. President, also that you are receiving an Iftaar --
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I am.
Q -- in the White House, which is, of course, a Muslim ritual
THE PRESIDENT: It is.
Q But I want to tell you -- and I hope this doesn't bother you at all -- that in the Islamic world they think that President Bush is an enemy of Islam --
THE PRESIDENT: Sure.
Q -- that he wants to destroy their religion, what they believe in. Is that in any way true, Mr. President?
THE PRESIDENT: No, it's not. I've heard that, and it just shows [sic] to show a couple of things: One, that the radicals have done a good job of propagandizing. In other words, they've spread the word that this really isn't peaceful people versus radical people or terrorists, this is really about the America not liking Islam.
Well, first of all, I believe in an almighty God, and I believe that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God. That's what I believe. I believe that Islam is a great religion that preaches peace.
Remainder of interview at:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/10/20071005-5.html

President Bush said: from the White House not some conspiracy site:
“Well, first of all, I believe in an almighty God, and I believe that all the world, whether they be Muslim, Christian, or any other religion, prays to the same God.”

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Proverbs 6:2
Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.


Chris you are right, we as Christians should be praying for the President; at the same time we must proclaim the truth of Jesus Christ and that is something the President did not do.
When we do not proclaim the truth of Jesus Christ, then we become slanders of Him, and that is apostasy.

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2007/10/19 23:38Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Brother pastorfrin…

First of all, let me make it clear that I am not defending the President of the United States because I adhere to his particular views on policy. Nor am I aligning myself with the President, the Republican Party or even the often despised “religious right.” I am defending the constant allegations that often taken a piece of “fact” and then mingle it with slander, assumption or conspiracy.

The author of an article is guilty of this. He makes claims from what appears to be a modified version of that “interview” with Charles Gibson. But even if the interview was NOT modified, the author is guilty of stating his own assumption as a fact. He claimed that: “[i] George W. Bush is a universalist. His confession is not that of a Christian, but that of a universalist.[/i]” The author of this op-ed piece is not presenting FACT or even TRUTH. He is making a slanderous allegation about the spiritual condition of a person (the President) who is not here to defend himself. Do you NOT see the danger is this? If the President is not a universalist (which he has made his beliefs far more clear in other interviews), then the author of this article is guilty of BEARING FALSE WITNESS against the President of the United States.

Secondly, you need to read my original post with a little more hesitation. I didn’t lump the author with “leftists.” I conveyed that the leftist throw stones at the President for being a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN, and some BELIEVERS (including the author) throw stones at the President with allegations that he isn’t really a CHRISTIAN at all. So the President gets it from both sides!

I don’t care to know the biography of the brother who wrote the article. I just wish that he would stop and consider the effect of his mudslinging. It has become so rampant amongst people in this world. Why should the Church be any different? Well, for one, we shouldn’t let “unclean communication come from our mouths.” The author made a judgment about a person’s salvation that he is [u]NOT[/u] qualified to make. I don’t care if he claims to have dined with Jerry Falwell or Bush Sr. This is not becoming of a believer! Shame on him!

You have provided some evidence from an interview that was provided from the White House website. I don’t agree with the remarks that President Bush made concerning “the same God.” Yet I have heard MANY preachers – including Billy Graham – say the same thing. They argue that the word “Allah” is the Arabic word for God. I don’t agree. But I am not going to judge the heart and spiritual condition of the man based upon one remark! No one should have that audacity! Should we judge each person like this, we would all be found guilty of the same judgment! The president operates in an official capacity in which he sometimes uses a little more caution in situations of foreign or domestic policy. If the President were to make a statement like “[i]Allah is really the devil![/i] – what do you think the outcome would be? If he said, “[i]The pope is a liar and a deceiver![/i] – what do you think the outcome would be?

Presidents, like it or not, are confined to certain manners of protocol. A person who works in the “secular” world is confined to such protocol. If you are a greeter at Wal-Mart, you cannot use that capacity to tell a Muslim, Hindu or Atheist shopper that he is going to Hell. You can’t even tell them that Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven. While I think that the President should not have made the remark, I still cannot pass such final judgment on his spiritual condition. In fact, no one (except for God) has that sort of authority. The President was likely trying to smooth relations with Muslims, who comprise of nearly 1/5 the world’s population. Yet, he has also made [u]other[/u] private statements that better clarify his beliefs. The President has publicly stated that he is born again. He has identified an experience where he gave his heart to Christ. Yet the author of this article seems to think that he knows better by judging the President’s “fruit” by a couple of statements and a couple of policy decisions that he might be of a differing opinion. Again, I find this dangerously unwise. Such slanderous judgment comes awfully close to, well, the same apostasy that the author cites in the first place.

We need to get past this nonsense. Why do we feel the need to attack anyone who doesn’t agree with us or who made a remark? I have said things that I later regretted. In fact, sometimes the words just didn’t come out right at all! I am glad that some pompous author didn’t attack me and question my salvation by a single statement or area of doctrinal disagreement! But that is where some believers seem to have arrived. We feel the need to tell someone of a differing opinion that they are in gross error. We also seem to feel the need to question their relationship with God when we don’t agree on a particular matter.

Brother, I don’t agree with your views on “Christian non-resistance.” In fact, I have strong opinions about your beliefs (just like you may have about mine). Yet I will NOT question your relationship with Christ Jesus. I am not going to point a judgmental finger at someone because I feel that either my relationship with Jesus is more real or my understanding of the Scriptures is superior. And I will not resort to violently resisting anyone to the point of slander or even character assassination! This article has done just that! The author has not throw rocks or shot a weapon, but he has done something far more damaging. In the name of what he feels is “truth,” he has used words to destroy the respect for a person’s claim of knowing Christ. He has taken upon himself to take the place of the Book of Life in rendering judgment upon this man. How sad!

What is the point of this thread? Is this thread meant to discuss the article or to be an extension of the author and try to “expose” the President as an “apostate?” I would like to believe that it is meant to merely discuss, but it seems to serve the purpose of repeating the author’s slander. What good is this? Why couldn’t someone just leave the disputed statements WITHOUT the slanderous, judgmental commentary? When will this excessive creation of anti-Bush threads cease? For each topical thread that is started, it seems like they are begun by the same individuals with very tightly held beliefs. It makes one wonder if these threads are meant to discuss or convert?

For all of the anti-Bush threads, how many of them have EVER ended with, “[i]Let us pray for the President and his family[/i]”? I don’t know if I have ever read one like that. Instead, they serve to accuse, slander, offer opinion, render judgment, or “expose” what they feel to be truth about the man (often using surface judgment). Isn’t this the snare mentioned in Proverbs 6:2? “Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.”

May God help us! May the President of the United States become intimately close to Christ with the same intimacy that I desire! May God speak to the President, lead him, guide him, and turn him into workable clay in the hands of an ever loving Potter! May the President stand up for righteousness and be directed by the mind of Christ. May he not only be a Commander-in-Chief, but a faithful servant of Christ.

:-(

Pastorfrin, I don't want you to feel that I am angry with you. I am not angry at any individual (including the author of this article). I am hurt by the insistence of any believer who feels the ability to question the spiritual condition of another believer -- especially if it is based upon certain limitations (not the least of these is our own, flawed humanity). We are too easy to dismiss others for their beliefs based on what we think we know from the Word of God. If God is to move through us, He will have to equip us to see past petty doctrinal difference or surface judgment. Why can't we encourage one another in our pilgrimage through this world without the need to peer suspiciously at the hearts and motives of those around us?


_________________
Christopher

 2007/10/20 1:30Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re: The point of this thread

Chris wrote: Quote: “Secondly, you need to read my original post with a little more hesitation.”

Chris,
I might ask you to do the same in my first post. When you ask such things as:


Chris wrote: Quote: “What is the point of this thread? Is this thread meant to discuss the article or to be an extension of the author and try to “expose” the President as an “apostate?” I would like to believe that it is meant to merely discuss, but it seems to serve the purpose of repeating the author’s slander. What good is this? Why couldn’t someone just leave the disputed statements WITHOUT the slanderous, judgmental commentary? When will this excessive creation of anti-Bush threads cease? For each topical thread that is started, it seems like they are begun by the same individuals with very tightly held beliefs. It makes one wonder if these threads are meant to discuss or convert?”



Chris, even with your, makes one wonder wording, you are still judging and accusing and if one would carefully read your past post, it is more than evident where your loyalties lie.

Here is the point of this thread and you could have addressed it instead of your tirade, as usual, about one speaking about something entirely different. Jesus Christ is not to be replaced by any one or any thing else, and that my boy is apostasy.

I was in a meeting a number of years ago where the head of the SBC was the speaker.
He told the story of attending the National Prayer Breakfast; this was I believe toward the beginning of President Bush’s first term, which does not matter because this is not about him. The speakers theme was how one should be politically correct and not offend others by using the name of Jesus Christ. In other words the name of Jesus was not to be used in conversation or public prayer, as the name Jesus Christ may be an offense to others.
Now, one must understand the caliber of those in attendance, all denominations were represented, as well as many nations and of course, many of our political leaders, business leaders and such.
The speaker finished his speech on ‘Not Using the Name of Jesus Christ’ and the whole place stood and erupted into applause. The head of the SBC said at that moment the Holy Spirit spoke to him and said, “you will not stand”, so he and his staff remained seated without applauding, to the disgruntle of those around them.
The point being this, when we go along with not using the name of Jesus Christ and those who promote this ‘political correctness’, we are promoting apostasy.

Now, the reason I posted this thread as proclaimed in my first post.

pastorfrin wrote:

Quote: He makes a very important point, why do pastors and church leaders remain silent?
Why does the body of Christ, remain silent? When did it become acceptable to approach the Father by any other name then Jesus? Can revival come by seeking Allah?

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is where real, true, personal revival comes from.

Matthew 10:32-39
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. [33] But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. [34] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. [35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. [36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. [37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. [38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. [39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.


This is a vow of God; it has already gone out of His mouth, so it cannot be altered in the least. He, the One and Only True God, has sworn by Himself, that:

Isaiah 45:23
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Romans 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Philip. 2:9-11
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: [10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; [11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

There is no other way and there is no other name than Jesus Christ. We as joint heirs with Him, Jesus Christ, can accept no other way, nor any other name than Jesus Christ.
It is time for the true Church to refuse to be ‘politically’ correct and shout Him from the house tops; Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by Him.

Jesus, Oh How Sweet the Name of my Savoir! Yes my Brothers and Sisters, His name is:
HE KEEPS ME SINGING

There's within my heart a melody,
Jesus whispers sweet and low,
"Fear not, I am with thee - peace, be still"
In all of life's ebb and flow.

Chorus: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus - Sweetest name I know,Fills my ev'ry longing, Keeps me singing as I go.

All my life was wrecked by sin and strife,
Discord filled my heart with pain,
Jesus swept across the broken strings,
Stirred the slumb'ring chords again.

Chorus: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus - Sweetest name I know,Fills my ev'ry longing, Keeps me singing as I go.

Feasting on the riches of His grace,
Resting 'neath His shelt'ring wing,
Always looking on His smiling face -
That is why I shout and sing.

Chorus: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus - Sweetest name I know,Fills my ev'ry longing, Keeps me singing as I go

Tho sometimes He leads thru waters deep,
Trials fall across the way,
Tho sometimes the path seems rough and steep,
See His footprints all the way.

Chorus: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus - Sweetest name I know,Fills my ev'ry longing, Keeps me singing as I go

Soon He's coming back to welcome me
Far beyond the starry sky;
I shall wing my flight to worlds unknown,
I shall reign with Him on high.

Chorus: Jesus, Jesus, Jesus - Sweetest name I know,Fills my ev'ry longing, Keeps me singing as I go.

Luther B. Bridgers 1884 - 1948


Jesus is the only way, how can we not proclaim His Glorious Name, JESUS?

In His Love
pastorfrin


I still proclaim Jesus Christ is the only name under heaven whereby one must be saved and there is no other way unto the Father then through Jesus Christ.
All those religious leaders, politicians, high ranking dignitaries from around the world, and of course many of our corporate heads or representatives, all applauding not using the name of Jesus Christ.
Can one imagine instructing Paul, Peter, Silas, and all the other disciples not to use the name of Jesus Christ because it may offend someone? Was this not the reason most all of them lost their lives? How about Stephen, should he be reprimanded for using the name of Jesus Christ? Can we say he got what he deserved because he did not go along with the system, like so many are accused of today?
Those who gave their lives not only used the name of Jesus Christ, they proclaimed Him to all and in all that they did.
It is time for the true Christian to stand up and proclaim Jesus Christ and to stop giving in to the whims of the many voices which proclaim ‘political correctness’; as the disciples and members of the early church were, so must we become.
Why are we afraid? Are your jobs and your worldly possessions more important than Jesus Christ? It does not matter what man nor organization says, this is not the time to be politically correct, it is time to proclaim JESUS CHRIST, and if it cost us all we have in this world, we my begin to understand these words:

2 Tim. 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Anything less than proclaiming His name, JESUS CHRIST is apostasy. Will the world become a better place? No, but we will become what He has called us to be, witnesses of JESUS CHRIST.

In His Love
pastorfrin

Ps I just wonder, if the Antichrist coming saying he’s a Christian,[ which he probably will] – will we still say – “we mustn’t judge”?

 2007/10/20 17:51Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Brother pastorfrin…

Quote:
Chris, even with your, makes one wonder wording, you are still judging and accusing and if one would carefully read your past post, it is more than evident where your loyalties lie.

Please do not attempt to turn my point against me. By doing so, you are not only defending the slanderout accusation against the President within the article (that not only questions his claim to be a believer, but labels him a “universalist”), but you are now questioning my loyalties! How incredibly ridiculous! Can’t you see the danger in this???

The “point” of the thread (which is dangerously subtle but evident in many of these sort of articles) is the fact that the author feels the audacious authority to question this man’s salvation! While he has eaten with some dignitaries in the past, that doesn’t give him the RIGHT to do this! The Word of God is expressly clear about judging the heart of a man.

In regard to your anecdote about being “politically correct” – I do not advocate such rhetoric. I even disagree with some of the words that President Bush spoke in the interview. While I don’t believe in being politically correct -- I do believe in being kindhearted in the words. But this goes beyond such kindness. My concern is with the audacity of certain believers who take it upon themselves to not only publicly question the salvation of the President (and contradict his own personal testimony), but who go so far as to also assassinate his character by claiming to know his motives.

The author of this article publicly stated that President Bush is “obviously” a universalist. Do you see the problem with this?!? This, in my opinion, is just as bad as the President’s supposed remarks. Yet you do the same by now claiming to know where my “loyalties” lie. BUT YOU [u]DON’T[/u] KNOW! No matter how wise we think that we may be, or how much we think we can “read between the lines,” we cannot know the heart or motives of a person!

In many of the articles that I have read espousing “Christian non-resistance,” I am perplexed by the amount of “violent” attacks that are written against the President. Instead of requesting prayer, the authors simply shoot arrows of disgust toward the man! Now they get to the point of even questioning the spiritual condition of those with whom they disagree! Where is God’s glory in all of this? Is God pleased with thread after thread of public, rhetorical disgust or commentary disguised as fact? Why do we have to freely label those with whom we disagree on doctrinal grounds as “universalists” or “apostates?”

You say, “[i] I still proclaim Jesus Christ is the only name under heaven whereby one must be saved and there is no other way unto the Father then through Jesus Christ.[/i]” I agree. But the condition of a person’s soul is not the call of [u]any[/u] man! This is dangerous rhetoric, and why I choose to write my feelings toward this. Even though I feel that your beliefs are flawed, I would never take it upon myself to question your “loyalties” or your “spiritual” condition. Even when I mistakenly referred to you as a “pacifist” (even though your beliefs fit the dictionary’s definition of the term), you were quick to insist the difference between “pacifism” and “Christian non-resistance.” I understand your perspective now. But don’t you think that the President should have the SAME OPPORTUNITY when some would-be authority feels the liberty to both call him a “universalist” and question his salvation???

We need to move on from this sort of nonsense! Don’t we realize the danger in using such a manner of judgment?

:-(

As for your question, “[i]I just wonder, if the Antichrist coming saying he’s a Christian,[ which he probably will] – will we still say – “we mustn’t judge”?[/i]” First of all, I don’t know that the anti-Christ will claim that he is a “Christian.” I think that he will attempt to exalt himself in the place of Christ. If we know Christ, we will not be misled by any man – especially the anti-Christ. Secondly, I don’t suppose that ANY believer should follow ANY man. Contrary to what you have suggested in the past (and imply within this thread), I don’t [u]follow[/u] President Bush. But I don’t violently throw judgmental arrows at him either. In the past, I have simply “defended” him from accusations that aren’t based upon fact. In this case, I am angry at the manner in which the author feels he can so authoritatively judge the President’s spiritual condition.

I really don’t care much about the rest of the article. It was interesting enough to allow me to check the sources (and lack thereof). Of course, I disagree with the idea about a similarity between the Muslim and Christian name for God. I disagree with President Bush concerning this just like I disagreed with Billy Graham. Of course, I haven't spoken with the President regarding his words (and what he really meant or whether or not the words were taken out of context). My response was triggered because I was concerned with the level of final judgment that the author authoratatively and publicly expressed about the spiritual state of a man. This is the article’s fatal flaw.


_________________
Christopher

 2007/10/20 18:32Profile
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Quote:
pastorfrin wrote:
I was in a meeting a number of years ago where the head of the SBC was the speaker.
He told the story of attending the National Prayer Breakfast; this was I believe toward the beginning of President Bush’s first term, which does not matter because this is not about him. The speakers theme was how one should be politically correct and not offend others by using the name of Jesus Christ. In other words the name of Jesus was not to be used in conversation or public prayer, as the name Jesus Christ may be an offense to others.
Now, one must understand the caliber of those in attendance, all denominations were represented, as well as many nations and of course, many of our political leaders, business leaders and such.
The speaker finished his speech on ‘Not Using the Name of Jesus Christ’ and the whole place stood and erupted into applause. The head of the SBC said at that moment the Holy Spirit spoke to him and said, “you will not stand”, so he and his staff remained seated without applauding, to the disgruntle of those around them.
The point being this, when we go along with not using the name of Jesus Christ and those who promote this ‘political correctness’, we are promoting [b]apostasy[/b].



Brother, I wonder if you are correct using this word [i]apostasy[/i] in this case, is too soft, I can strongly feel the spirit of [b]antichrist[/b] here. anti-Christ against-Christ

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 [b]And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence,[/b] even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, [b]Jesus Christ himself[/b] being the chief corner stone;

I think the devil is too smart to promote something openly against Christ and open persecution in the "countries that have liberty and freedom", like mine, America, western Europe etc(he will probably do that in the end days, but the church has been always the strongest in times of persecution), but now there is more wicked way, much more. Now we are witnesses of counterfeit Christianity, the real one has been substitute with false one that can many believe in the false Christ, non-offensive one, which is idol in reality, because it doesn't exist. And so many are after that.

The voice of our Lord is still crying:

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Quote:
I still proclaim Jesus Christ is the only name under heaven whereby one must be saved and there is no other way unto the Father then through Jesus Christ.
All those religious leaders, politicians, high ranking dignitaries from around the world, and of course many of our corporate heads or representatives, all applauding not using the name of Jesus Christ.
[b]Can one imagine instructing Paul, Peter, Silas, and all the other disciples not to use the name of Jesus Christ because it may offend someone? Was this not the reason most all of them lost their lives? How about Stephen, should he be reprimanded for using the name of Jesus Christ? Can we say he got what he deserved because he did not go along with the system, like so many are accused of today?
Those who gave their lives not only used the name of Jesus Christ, they proclaimed Him to all and in all that they did.
It is time for the true Christian to stand up and proclaim Jesus Christ and to stop giving in to the whims of the many voices which proclaim ‘political correctness’; as the disciples and members of the early church were, so must we become.
Why are we afraid? Are your jobs and your worldly possessions more important than Jesus Christ? It does not matter what man nor organization says, this is not the time to be politically correct, it is time to proclaim JESUS CHRIST, and if it cost us all we have in this world, we my begin to understand these words:

2 Tim. 3:12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.[/b]



I think I cannot agree more. I still remember in one sermon that I heard years ago, brother Wilkerson was preaching how we will hear less and less preaching the name of Jesus, we will hear God, Almighty, but the name of Jesus will be forbidden. This is happening in front of our eyes, and it will be promoted in stronger way in the years following.

Kire

 2007/10/20 18:34Profile





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