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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:

Now I would like to put forth an illustration for you and logic(if he chooses)to look at and give feedback.

Let us suppose a man has fallen into debt. He cannot repay this debt as he has nothing to pay with, he is utterly poor.

A bill collector comes calling, and says to the man, "you must pay the debt or you shall be punished."

To which the man replies, "Sir, I have nothing to pay with, please let me go free."

Now, is the bill collector unjust for demanding that which is impossible for the man to pay?

No.
Quote:
Or is the bill collector just for seeking the justice of what was demanded by the law, and the man a law breaker for not doing what was required by the law?

[b]Mat 18:27[/b] [color=990000]Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and released him, and forgave him the debt.[/color]
Notice that the Lord of that servant was moved with compassion.
God is [b]infinite[/b] in compassion and grace and mercy.
You make God to be not all loving, finite in grace and mercy by having God desire not all men to be saved.
Quote:
Now I think we agree that every man is guilty before God through the Law, and thus God is not unjust to demand what men cannot do, for man could do it before the fall. The effects of the fall, and the imputing of sin are clear.

Man can fullfill the righteousness of the law by walking after the Spirit.
The the imputing of sin is not clear, it is rediculous.

Quote:
Just so we understand that sin is not just counted against us because of imitation, but because of imputation, I ask you to look at the following truth which is observed in our daily lives.

Proove it.

 2007/10/29 15:07Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Proove it.



Well, to use a scientific way of proving a hypothesis true, a law must be easily observable before a hypothesis is labeled a law.

So, if infants are guilty and suffer the effects of sin, while not sinners by way of their own committing sin, we must ask, does this show that they are guilty by imputation?

Or, the hypothesis is that the effects of sin have been imputed to all that are living.

Now we test this by seeing if the effects of this guilt(death, illness, pain, suffering) are suffered by all apart from their committing sin.

The test shows that without a doubt, all persons suffer from the effects of sin, not just by imitating it, but also because it is imputed to them, and so is the guilt that accompanies it.

We see this over and over, and over again. Therefore it is save to make a law, or principle that men of all ages apart from imitating Adam's sin, have sin and its effects(guilt etc. ) imputed to them.

I believe the evidence has proven my point. Of course, if infants did not die, or suffer, or get sick, then we cold say I was wrong, but...


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/29 15:21Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

I do forgive you, and I want to say that you have been better than most people that I have discussed, as most of them can't even remember what we are talking about. : )


roaringlamb wrote:

Quote:
The following quote from your last reply sums up what I believe. God uses the Gospel preached to regenerate the heart. The new heart understands its sin against the love, and holiness of God. The new heart sees the justice of God in making Christ sin for us, but also the grace in allowing us through Him to be the righteousness of God in Christ.

But I also see that God's truth by His Spirit causes repentance and faith in the person who God regenerates. Thus it is not God who repents for that person, but that person repents for himself. perhaps this has been an area of confusion as I did not make that point clear before.



May I point out that the only difference here is that I believe regeneration takes place after a man believes, otherwise salvation would not be by faith alone through grace.

Rather it would be by God alone to the working of faith, which would contradict Paul's whole exerpt on grace.

I believe that we have had a bit of confusion, but I don't think we can conclude that we believe identically.

Quote:
At the moment, I do not have the wherewithal to answer all of your points, and I also see that neither of us will "prevail" upon the other(which was not my point). Just please do not lump all Calvinists as "fools", or "lesser brothers".



I do hope that at some point, you will find the time to answer them, as I believe it is important for us to know the truth in all matters that God will give, and has given to us.

I also must say that I do not think of you, or any calvinist as a "lesser brother", but rather it only saddens me, because I see the great ability, and potential of each man to go and preach the gospel. Yet I see very few in both circles, (calvinist & arminian) that will go and preach like they have been commanded.

The biggest heartcry I see is that I am concerned for calvinists and arminians alike, is that when they stand before God on judgment day, He is going to look into all of our eyes, and start naming souls by name and requiring their blood at our hands, and we will have no excuse for our lack of action.

Paul was afraid of this, to the point that even after he said he was done with the Jews and would go to the gentiles from that point on, he tarried still another two years with the Jews preaching the gospel to them.

I see what calvinists believe as a reason to excuse themselves from that issue. Now I realize that no calvinist would say that they are excused from preaching, but deep down, they know from their doctrine that "God will save the lost He wants anyway" so it is not a serious thing to them.

I have been to presbyterian churches before, and I applaud their dilligence in knowing the word of God, and I applaud their reverence for God.

But on this one issue of the lost, I am deeply concerned, if you want to believe in five point theology, that is fine by me, but be a Charles Spurgeon, be a George Whitfield, be a Jonathan Edwards, preaching such things as "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God".

I believe they would accuse both the calvinist, and arminian churches of being sluggards concerning the cause of Christ, and the preaching of the gospel.
------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Now I would like to put forth an illustration for you and logic(if he chooses)to look at and give feedback.

Let us suppose a man has fallen into debt. He cannot repay this debt as he has nothing to pay with, he is utterly poor.

A bill collector comes calling, and says to the man, "you must pay the debt or you shall be punished."

To which the man replies, "Sir, I have nothing to pay with, please let me go free."

Now, is the bill collector unjust for demanding that which is impossible for the man to pay?

Or is the bill collector just for seeking the justice of what was demanded by the law, and the man a law breaker for not doing what was required by the law?



The bill collector is absolutely just in requiring the man to pay the debt...

...unless the bill collector pays the debts of his other debters and let's them go free.

For if the bill collector frees one who deserves to pay, and does not free the other, he become an arbitrary bill collector.

We know from studying the scripture that God is arbitrary about nothing, and that everything He does is with just purpose and righteousness.

Quote:
Now I think we agree that every man is guilty before God through the Law, and thus God is not unjust to demand what men cannot do, for man could do it before the fall. The effects of the fall, and the imputing of sin are clear.

Just so we understand that sin is not just counted against us because of imitation, but because of imputation, I ask you to look at the following truth which is observed in our daily lives.

Infants are subject to the effects of sin. They feel pain, they suffer illness, and they also die. Yet what sin has an infant committed? If they are unable to commit sin, yet suffer sin's effects, are they not guilty as well? If they are guilty, not because they have committed sin, then why? Does this not show that Adam's sin has been imputed to the world?



While sin is imputed, and the effects of it, Christ's death on the cross broke the power of sin so that we as sinners might come to know God

We must sometimes remember to look at certain things like the issue of babies, and the Hebrew law.

If you know anything about the Jews, you must know that children according to the law of Moses were not accountable to the law until the age of 12 or 13, I don't know which. When the disciples tried to hold back these children, (who had sin imputed to them, but were not accountable yet,) Jesus response to the disciples was that "the kingdom of heaven belonged to such as these".

Christ made a clear point of saying that to children belonged the kingdom of heaven. Now Christ understood the scriptures and far more, so if He had wanted to say differently at that point He could have. But what He did say was "let them come to me".

I believe that the scripture clearly teaches that children are not accountable to imputed sin, until they have reached an age of understanding it.

If you look at the issue of abortion, you cannot call judging souls of infants that are unborn to hell just. That is not love, for they did not even have life yet, yet they had a soul.

I do not believe a just God could sentence all of the unborn children to burn in hell forever like that, their is no love in that.

I believe that until a child has a revelation of sin, he is not accountable to it. Meaning, there is an age with every child where they can hear their conscience, and at that point they are accountable to it. An infant cannot hear their conscience, neither can a 1 year old. Therefore they cannot be judged by the standard that Paul lays out in Romans 1 of how people are judged who have not heard the gospel.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/10/29 15:40Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
Proove it.

Well, to use a scientific way of proving a hypothesis true, a law must be easily observable before a hypothesis is labeled a law.

So, if infants are guilty and suffer the effects of sin, while not sinners by way of their own committing sin, we must ask, does this show that they are guilty by imputation?

Or, the hypothesis is that the effects of sin have been imputed to all that are living.

Now we test this by seeing if the effects of this guilt(death, illness, pain, suffering) are suffered by all apart from their committing sin.

The test shows that without a doubt, all persons suffer from the effects of sin, not just by imitating it, but also because it is imputed to them, and so is the guilt that accompanies it.

We see this over and over, and over again. Therefore it is save to make a law, or principle that men of all ages apart from imitating Adam's sin, have sin and its effects(guilt etc. ) imputed to them.

I believe the evidence has proven my point. Of course, if infants did not die, or suffer, or get sick, then we cold say I was wrong, but...

The effect of din is spiritual death. you are thinking that death, illness, pain, suffering ect are effecit what they are only circumstances of Adams sin.
Furthermore, there is no guilt imputed unless the act is done personaly.

 2007/10/29 15:54Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
I see what calvinists believe as a reason to excuse themselves from that issue. Now I realize that no calvinist would say that they are excused from preaching, but deep down, they know from their doctrine that "God will save the lost He wants anyway" so it is not a serious thing to them.



I would agree, and also caution you not to lump Calvinists in with hyper-Calvinists who believe what you are saying. If you have not already, I might recommend to you a wonderful little book called "Spurgeon Versus Hyper-Calvinism" by Iain Murray. It tackles what you are addressing here very well.

Quote:
I do not believe a just God could sentence all of the unborn children to burn in hell forever like that, their is no love in that.



Neither do I brother. But rather because of His merciful character, I believe He regenerates them when they die in infancy, or even those who are mentally disabled and cannot "decide".

I am glad that you are my brother, and that we can each spur one another on to know Him more and more.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/29 16:31Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

roaringlamb,

Out of curiosity, what do you think about what I said about the issue of faith, and a measure to all men?


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/10/29 16:55Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Out of curiosity, what do you think about what I said about the issue of faith, and a measure to all men?



Let me re-read what you wrote before making a response. If however you are basing that on what Paul says in Romans(Romans 12:3), it would apply to the believers Paul was writing to, and I believe the context of that section clearly shows that.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/29 18:32Profile









 Re: All Men Everywhere

Just for the record, I'd like to quote Young's Literal Translation from Romans 8, to show something about the tenses, and therefore the meaning Paul intended.

26 And, in like manner also, the Spirit doth help our weaknesses; for, what we may pray for, as it behoveth [i]us[/i], we have not known, but the Spirit himself doth make intercession for us with groanings unutterable,
27 and He who is searching the hearts hath known what [i]is[/i] the mind of the Spirit, because according to God he doth intercede for saints.
28 And we have known that to those loving God all things do work together for good, to those who are called according to purpose;
29 because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.



A few thoughts on the above:


v 27 'He who is searching the hearts' is the Lord Himself

v 28 Paul is testifying from his past, as a means of encouraging the body in Rome.

It is not a prediction, but rather a hope based on live experience.

v 29 We are glorified already.... that is to say, we are identified in Christ's resurrection and the sanctification of the Spirit which is eternally true [i]now[/i]. (2 Cor 3, Heb 10, 1 Thess 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.)

 2007/10/29 23:13
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Hey roaringlamb, I thought that the verse about faith I was referring to was in one of the gospels, but as it turns out it was from Romans 12:3.

I am not totally convinced that the context actually does make it say that it is talking about believers, but it is ambiguous enough that I will say that it may not be a point worth discussing.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/10/30 10:33Profile





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