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 MAN'S WILL vs. GOD'S SOVEREIGNITY

Does man have free will, or is God in absolute control over all events.

 2007/10/18 9:26









 Re: MAN'S WILL vs. GOD'S SOVEREIGNITY

Here are some verses which show man's will in collision with God reigning:

Luke 19:14 - But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not [will] have this man to reign [sove-reign] over us.

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not [will] that I should reign [sove-reign] over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

And so we see that man's rebellion is his own doing. Man's sin is not the plan of God.

The Sovereign decree of God regarding sin is "Thou Shalt Not". Therefore, sin is rebellion against the sovereign decree of God.

(Sovereign means God is the ultimate authority over all, not the ultimate cause of all. So God is still Sovereign even when man is in rebellion against His Sovereign decrees or Sovereign Will)

Consider:

1. Suppose sin is God's plan
2. Yet God is angry with sin
3. Yet God is grieved with sin
4. Then God is angry and grieved with His own plan. God would be the author of His own unhappiness.

But whoever God punishes for sin must be the cause of sin. Whoever God is angry with for sin must be the source of sin.

 2007/10/18 9:56









 Re:

Quote:
But whoever God punishes for sin must be the cause of sin. Whoever God is angry with for sin must be the source of sin.



I don't agree with man being the source of sin even though I agree man is still responsible for his sin. Still you have to see that God sovereignly directs everyones paths to either grace by His own sovereing election or leaves them dead in their sins for destruction

 2007/10/18 11:25
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

pm4Hisglory wrote:

Quote:
I don't agree with man being the source of sin even though I agree man is still responsible for his sin. Still you have to see that God sovereignly directs everyones paths to either grace by His own sovereing election or leaves them dead in their sins for destruction



First of all, in reference to man being the source of his own sin, I believe James makes it very clear that each man is the source of his own sin.

[b][color=FF0000]James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.[/color][/b]

As for your second statement, if it is true, reconcile the following scripture.

[b][color=FF0000]Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:[/color][/b]

How can God be just, and command all men everywhere to repent, and then not save all men everywhere?

It is unjust, it is illogical, and a misunderstanding of the nature of God.

God has left a man's salvation in his own hands, not in the sense that God doesn't save men, but in the sense that a man makes a decision for or against Christ, and then God acts upon that decision.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/10/18 11:49Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

mans will is free, there is so much scripture that is ignored because so many wish to defend a doctrine, so many also think they are "the elect" just because they figured out a doctrine. Mans will is free.... free to choose, otherwise that is not love....


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/10/18 11:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:
God has left a man's salvation in his own hands, not in the sense that God doesn't save men, but in the sense that a man makes a decision for or against Christ, and then God acts upon that decision.



So man is ultimately in control of who enters the kingdom? How can a dead sinner, who cannot discern God's ways, is blinded by satan, and hates God have the ability to become a new creature on his own will???? Thats illogical, salvation is the power of God not human will. God doesn't stand by waiting for man to call the shots.

 2007/10/18 11:58
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Brother,
You are correct, but must understand that the majority of folks on this site believe that a will that is enslaved to sin is free? How I do not know, but that is for God to illuminate to them as He did for me.

If you do a search for "Calvinism" on this site, perhaps you can add to the discussions we have had in the past.

Every blessing to you from our God who reigns and dictates in His absolute sovereignty.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/10/18 12:04Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 not a matter of Sovereignty vs Free will...

bro PM

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

it is not a matter of God's Sovereignty vs man's free will at all and i believe that this belief is the source of much strife in the body, namely Calvinism vs Armenianism. Clearly the testimony of scripture is that God is Sovereign and also that man has a responsibility to be obedient so God is Sovererign and man's will is free within the confines of that Sovereignty. Nothing happens outside of God's approval, He is not surprised by anything because He indeed planned and ordered all things according to His own Will and yet somehow, man has free will in a sense, not that he can do as he pleases for man is either a slave to sin or to God. That as men we choose God is because He had chosen us from the setting of the foundations of the world.

most of us think that God's Sovereignty and man's free will are mutually exclusive, that is rubbish because as far as God is concerned, the 2 are 1 in the Eternal Purpose that He is Glorified forever and He testifies to this in scripture. in John 6 we see how our choosing of God is dependant on Him choosing us first because without that, we have no hope, such is the tragic nature of our sinful state, we can do nothing as far as salvation goes except in response to God.

dear saints it's not a this vs that but this and that together.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/10/18 12:50Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
pm4Hisglory wrote:

Still you have to see that God sovereignly directs everyones paths to either grace by His own sovereing election or leaves them dead in their sins for destruction

God would never direct anyone to hell!
By God's infinite love, He would never leave anyone dead by HIS own choice.
If He does, He would definitly not be ALL loving!

 2007/10/18 12:55Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re: not a matter of Sovereignty vs Free will...

I just wanted to give a word of warning, no matter what doctrine we hold, let us be one in love, i am especially thinking of the upcoming conference and the powers who want the church to be divided.... even as we talk about these things, let us speak with love to wards one another.


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/10/18 12:57Profile





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