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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
psalm1 wrote:
Logic I am only looking at that one paassage and reconciling what i read.
To me [I could be wrong] If i apply your reasoning then we have 3 births 1] natural 2]through baptism [that wich is born of the flesh is flesh] 3]rebirth[born again]
You will notice no reference to baptism in the dialog with nicodemas.
This in my opinion is a conveinent place to insert water baptism which in no way is being referred to [this is strictly my opinion]
You and i are not the first to examine these two possibilities. Theologians differ on this matter.
I dont know if I 'proved my theory'...as you say...but i would say it is equally possible to cast doubt on the other view since it doesnt fit the dialog.
So since niether of us really knows for now i choose to say born of the womb=natural birth
Make sense?

Baptism is not a birth, it is a representation of salvation, in that it is a change of life; from death to life(Romans 6:4, Colos 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21).

Therefore, 1)the first birth at conception, 2) second at acceptance of the Work that Christ did, or the moment of Salvation; born from death to life.

[b]The baptism is not that wich is born of the flesh is flesh[/b]

The word "water" is used in Eph 5:26 & Titus 3:5.
Baptism was practiced by the Jews in receiving a Gentile as a proselyte. In this baptism, the proselyte promised in the most solemn manner to renounce idolatry, to take the God of Israel for his God, and to have his life conformed to the precepts of the Divine law.

Jesus tells Nicodemus, that the Jew himself cannot be admitted into the kingdom of the God unless he, first, strip himself of his Judaism by baptism of water(as the crhistian is baptized strip himself of his wordlyness), and put off his carnal and put on a spiritual state.

This is the basic conversation:
[b]John 3:4-5[/b] Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born again after he is already old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb to be born of the flesh again?
:5 Jesus answered him, “I am telling you a truth, a "natural" person cannot enter the kingdom of God, you must first, strip yourself of his old life with the symbol baptism of water and also by the Holy Spirit.
:6 Because whoever is born from human parents(flesh) is a still a natural man, whoever is born from the Holy Spirit is a spiritual man.
:7 So, do not be surprised that I have said to you, ‘You must be born from above.”

Jesus is not putting born of water as being born of flesh. That would be contrary to what HE is saying in context of verse 6; one cannot enter into the kingdom of God Except a man be born of a woman? and the spirit.

Furthermore, it would be rather rediculous to say that one needs to be born physicaly to do anything, for that is like, duh!

 2007/10/17 22:10Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
psalm1 wrote:
InTheLight, In that case the born=baptism theory still doesnt fit because not only would nicodemas have to connect Jesus words to baptism [which I cant see happening] even more far fetched he would have to connect baptism with birth.

If you would understand what baptism is:
[b]Rom 6:3-5[/b] [color=990000]Know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[b]:4[/b] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that just as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[b]:5[/b] For if we have been united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:[/color]

Baptism is a [b]representation[/b] of death, therfore, the coming up out of the water is life(a new birth).
Baptism is a representation of the actual event of salvation.

 2007/10/17 22:21Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

roaringlamb, it was a rhetoracle question.He was saying even though you are a master you know not the things of the spirit.
read vs 12
also when you read vs7 and8 we see that 'these things' are referring to the new birth not new births plural.


the more I look at this the more and more it looks like born of the flesh can only mean 'from the womb'


....David

 2007/10/17 22:23Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

logic ...nobody connects resurrection with birth.
If you connect baptism to birth then you have 2 births
Born again and baptism are 2 different things


....David

 2007/10/17 22:26Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Logic, Ok what I am seeing here is you place most of the weight of this dialog with nicodemas on the "water" part of the sentence, whereas an english teacher would put the empasis on the born of the spirit part.
Through process of elimination we can rule out baptism.
Jesus reference to water is a direct answer to nicodemas question 'mothers womb'
....David

 2007/10/17 22:45Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
the more I look at this the more and more it looks like born of the flesh can only mean 'from the womb'



Yes, I agree, and it seems that what Jesus is getting at is the need of regeneration to understand the things He was teaching.

Later Christ would say, "that which is flesh is flesh", or in other words, "it will always remain flesh until there is a new birth of the Spirit.

Jesus word in vs 12, 13 also show what Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 2-
1Co 2:7 But [b]we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:[/b]
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 [b]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/b]

The water and the spirit are cleansing of the heart, and imparting of Spiritual life into the heart. Thus it is made a new heart that seeks Christ, and seeks to obey Him.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/10/17 23:19Profile
BlazedbyGod
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Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain WATER: and the eunuch said, See, HERE IS WATER; what doth hinder me to be BAPTIZED? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the WATER, both Philip and the eunuch; and he BAPTIZED him. 39 And when they were come up out of THE WATER, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Verse 37-Why did Philip say" If thou BELIEVEST with all thine heart thou mayest"- because he knew the words of his Christ

Mark 16:16 [color=CC0000]He that BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved;[/color]

In scripture, for New Testament saints the word baptism refers to water & Spirit.

Acts 8:36 "...see here is WATER, what doth hinder me to be BAPTIZED?" (clearly talking about water baptism)

Or you can see this totally clear in:
Matt 3:11 I indeed BAPTIZE you WITH WATER unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall BAPTIZE you WITH THE HOLY GHOST, and WITH FIRE:

John is stating how he baptized people in water, and then he goes on to say how Jesus will baptize people with the Holy Ghost and with Fire.

Also, the same is true for the word water sometimes:
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

When Christ uses "water" here, he is referring to the Spirit. (He uses water to reference the Spirit because water is a pure substance)

Thus in scripture we see that people are to be "baptized" :
1. IN water
2. IN the Spirit
3. IN Fire

The word "baptism" means literally SUBMERSION, IMMERSION. If you look up the word baptism in Greek it will you both references to water and Spirit-thus Christ's exact words in John 3:5


[url=http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=908&version=kjv]Definition of Baptism[/url]

To say that the word baptism only refers to Spirit baptism is inaccurate and unscriptural.

People who do not believe in baptismal regeneration simply do not understand what they are saying neither the words of Christ in John 3:5

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to FLEE FROM THE WRATH TO COME.

What was John's baptism? Of/In water unto repentance.

But the Bible clearly states, that in John's day-they were saved by being baptized (in water) by John confessing their sins.

Matt 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. ( Why did they confess their sins to John while being baptized?)

Also: Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the BAPTISM (in water) of repentance FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS.

If John in his day,preached baptism (referring to water) of repentance FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS-but almost everyone on this site refuses to believe that even now, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is FOR the remission of sins even as the Holy Word of God says in Acts 2:38.

Mark 1:4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. That is the same thing Christ told his disciples in :

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be PREACHED in his name among all nations, BEGINNING at Jerusalem. (Notice Repentance and remission of sins are TWO different things)

This first time Luke 24:47 was ever fulfilled was Acts 2:32-38 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

How did John preach repentance and remission of sins: Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

Again, if John preached the baptism of repentance FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS-meaning John water baptized unto repentance for the remission of sins-then why do people on this site refuse to believe that water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is FOR the remission of sins when the verse plainly says this:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ [b]FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS[/b]

When Peter said Repent and be baptized-He is talking about water baptism. Notice he says "[b]IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST[/b]

Remove the words " the name" and read the verse in that manner:

Acts 2:38 "...and be baptized IN JESUS CHRIST, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost..."

This again are the very sentiments of Jesus Christ in John 3:5 Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingodm of God

This is the very thing Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost when the Jews said " What shall we do"

You cannot separate water and Spirit baptism-they go hand in hand in Christ Jesus-this is the full meaning of Romans 6:1-12 and Eph 4:5

1 John 5: Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by WATER and BLOOD, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, THE SPIRIT, and THE WATER, AND THE BLOOD: and these three AGREE IN ONE.






 2007/10/18 11:55Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
Logic, Ok what I am seeing here is you place most of the weight of this dialog with nicodemas on the "water" part of the sentence, whereas an english teacher would put the empasis on the born of the spirit part.
Through process of elimination we can rule out baptism.
Jesus reference to water is a direct answer to nicodemas question 'mothers womb'
....David

Yes, water is a direct answer to nicodemas question, but water is never refered to as child birth. Let scripture interpret its self.

 2007/10/18 15:50Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

how many verses are required to form a doctrine? is 3 the magic number? 5? 10?

How many times in scripture is "Word" defined as God? there are thousands of instances of "word". How many of those say that it means "God"?


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Denver McDaniel

 2007/10/18 16:01Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Blazed, let me ask you: must you speak in tongues to be saved?


_________________
Denver McDaniel

 2007/10/18 16:01Profile





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