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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Born of water

I was talking with a bro. in Christ and we got into John 3:5-6, and he brought up something that is alien to me.
He sais that Jesus was useing the term "born of water" as natural child birth.

[b]John 3:5-6[/b] [color=990000]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[b]:6[/b] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[/color]
This water is talking about baptism, and not saying that a man be born of natural birth and of the Spirit.

I don't think this lines up with the "Apostolic Doctrine" thread, so I am making it to be a whole new thread and see where it goes.

 2007/10/16 22:13Profile
Christinyou
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 Re: Born of water

Born of water:

Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Born of Spirit:

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

His Body the Church, Born Again:

Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Who is the water of Life?
Who is the Spirit of Christ?
Who is the Word?

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/10/16 23:06Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
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 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou wrote:
Born of water:
Who is the water of Life?

Not a who, but a what.
[b]1John 5:6-8[/b] [color=990000]This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
[b]:7[/b] For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.
[b]:8[/b] And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.[/color]

 2007/10/17 10:40Profile
BlazedbyGod
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Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re: Born of water

Quote:

Logic wrote:
I was talking with a bro. in Christ and we got into John 3:5-6, and he brought up something that is alien to me.
He sais that Jesus was useing the term "born of water" as natural child birth.

[b]John 3:5-6[/b] [color=990000]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[b]:6[/b] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.[/color]
This water is talking about baptism, and not saying that a man be born of natural birth and of the Spirit.

I don't think this lines up with the "Apostolic Doctrine" thread, so I am making it to be a whole new thread and see where it goes.



Logic, you are correct..Jesus Christ is NOT talking about natural birth. But I can tell you that almost every person who responds to this, will tell you that he is.

John 3:3 Except a man be born-[b]AGAIN[/b].."

To be born AGAIN, would have to imply that he has already been born once-being born once would be nothing less than natual birth. Jesus is not telling a grown man that he needs to be born naturally again. If this were true, then man would have to do exactly as Nicodemus said: and get back into his Mother's womb, close it up and be born-AGAIN

Jesus is not talking about being born, He is talking about being born AGAIN of water and of the Spirit.

Logic, He is, as you said, talking about water baptism.

 2007/10/17 14:19Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

This is not natural child birth. This is the witness of Who Christ is, by the three that agree. The water is Christs baptismal water, what was the witness? The Holy Spirit was upon Him as a dove as a witness to Him being One with the Spirit of God, and the Fathers witness was "This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased".

The three that bear witnesses on earth are: The water of His beginning of His ministry on earth, The Holy Spirit on Him as One, The Fathers proclamation that in truth, This truly is my Son.

1 John 5:7-9 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

As the Three in Heaven are One witness, so also are the Three on earth One, The witness is true, Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Why was He baptized? Jhn 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

"To fulfil all righteousness"; to carry into full effect every divine institution.

If you look for who the witnesses are you will see that the water testifies of the Who He is. The Person of Jesus Christ the Son of God.

This water is different from living water, but a profile of the Same Person that gives life, The water of Life and the witness that He is life.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/10/17 16:21Profile
Logic
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 Re:

I am glad that we (three) agree, I wonder how some might think that this "water" in john 3:5 means fleshly birth.

 2007/10/17 16:32Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

One is revealed by man.

One is revealed by the HOLY SPIRIT.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/10/17 17:04Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Logic wrote:
I am glad that we (three) agree, I wonder how some might think that this "water" in john 3:5 means fleshly birth.

Hi Bro Logic

I don't understand why everyone has to be so dogmatic about this - it could mean natural birth or baptism in water or?...

Or maybe "all of the above"...

Why not? Scripture is so very rich that every verse has a great depth of meaning.

However, this question has set me to looking at the whole of John's thought on this subject, or at least his thought as revealed in the Gospel, and in the first epistle. For John's Gospel is far more than a simple account of Jesus' earthly life: With the inspiration of the Spirit he interprets as well as records.

Watch this space! :-)

Jeannette

 2007/10/17 17:11
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
LittleGift wrote:
Quote:
Logic wrote:
I am glad that we (three) agree, I wonder how some might think that this "water" in john 3:5 means fleshly birth.

Hi Bro Logic

I don't understand why everyone has to be so dogmatic about this - it could mean natural birth or baptism in water or?...

Or maybe "all of the above"...

Why not? Scripture is so very rich that every verse has a great depth of meaning.

There is no where is scripture that water means anything close to physical birth.

If Jesus meant born of the flesh when HE said born of water, HE would have said it just as he did in verse 6.
The reason that HE said water is because HE meant water, not flesh.
Otherwise He would have said, "Except a man be born of fleash and of the Spirit" and/or "That which is born of the water is flesh"

This is common hermeneutics and exegesis.

 2007/10/17 17:27Profile
BlazedbyGod
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Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

1 John 5: 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came BY WATER AND BLOOD, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water AND blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness IN THE EARTH, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: AND THESE THREE AGREE IN ONE

Matt 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, WHEN HE WAS BAPTIZED, went up straightway OUT OF THE WATER: and, lo, THE HEAVENS WERE OPENED UNTO HIM, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The subject matter is not birth-rather, it is, to be BORN-AGAIN.

If Jesus is referring to natural birth, then none of us are born-AGAIN-because as Nic said, we would have to enter into THE SECOND TIME our mother's womb?

This is the direct statement that Nic asks. THen he even speaks naturally, he says "..how can a MAN be born (natural birth) when HE IS OLD? can he enter the second time enter his mother's womb and be born? (This is verse 4)

If Jesus was speaking of NATURAL birth,then why does he make the statement. " Except a man be born AGAIN"

If Jesus was speaking of NATURAL birth, then we ALL must get back in our mothers womb for the second time and be born again-because Christ is talking about being born-AGAIN, not being born the first time.

Also...Jesus never mentions anything in John 3:1-8 about a "Mother"

The reason why Jesus says " That which is born of the flesh is flesh" is because the man in which he was talking to was born of the flesh or, already naturally born, but needed to be born again of water and of the Spirit

 2007/10/17 17:37Profile





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