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john1140
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 34
A Sister in Christ from Michigan

 Apostolic Doctrine

Hi Brothers and Sisters,
This morning I attended Sunday school at an Apostolic church and the teacher mentioned the importance of being baptized in Jesus' name only. She referenced Jesus' commandment to go out into all the earth...baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... but noted that the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus (or Christ) suggesting that the deed took precedence over the commandment.

The implications of her statement was:
1) baptism is necessary for salvation
2) baptizing is the means by which people are filled with the Holy Spirit (as if it were a separate event)
3)If an individual has not been baptized in the name of Jesus only, then he or she is not saved.

I was able to get a copy of their doctrinal statement, and the the last sentence troubles me..."We believe in the baptism in the water by immersion, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins (I'm okay with this) and the baptism of the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance. This constitutes the new birth."

If any of you can direct me to a previous thread that address this issue, I'd appreciate it. As always, I look forward to any insight.

Sonya


_________________
Sonya

 2007/10/14 12:10Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re: Apostolic Doctrine

I reference you to:

John 3:1-8 (verse 3-5)
Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38
Rom 6:1-12

3)If an individual has not been baptized in the name of Jesus only, then he or she is not saved

The remission of sins only come through being water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ-thus, if one has not been baptized in the name of Jesus they are still in sin, or better yet, sin is still in them. Acts 2:38 shows that it is indeed water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins.

Also Acts 4:12 showing how we are saved by the NAME of Jesus

" She referenced Jesus' commandment to go out into all the earth...baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... but noted that the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus (or Christ) suggesting that the deed took precedence over the commandment."

It is not that it took precedence OVER the commandment, it is that it was the answer and obedience to the commandment.


 2007/10/14 13:27Profile
john1140
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 34
A Sister in Christ from Michigan

 Re:

Thanks for responding. It is my understanding that we are baptized because we have received remission of sins through the blood of Jesus Christ (believing that He is the Christ and that He shed His blood on the cross for our sins).


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Sonya

 2007/10/14 13:40Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Your welcome

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost

Scripture says we get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins.

The blood of Christ is attached to us through water baptism in his name.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

This was first done on the day of Pentecost.


 2007/10/14 13:46Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: Apostolic Doctrine

john1140,they probably came across the objection to their doctrine after they were already committed to the Jesus only position.
You will find that the Jesus only people are so dogmatic in their doctrine that they will actually accuse you of NOT being saved.
You will also find that you agree with them on most points of their doctrine. But they put their dogma out front as a actual point of fellowship.
You cant be a part of them and dissagree about their baptism doctrine. In their mind this point is just cause for division.
I have run into this several times and so far have seen no fruit.
I never have looked into their "holy Ghost doctrine"
.....David

 2007/10/14 22:20Profile
john1140
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 34
A Sister in Christ from Michigan

 Re:

Thanks for the insight David,
Funny you should bring up the point about division because one characterization a brother made during the lesson was the "nominal church" in comparison to the Apostolic church, with the latter being superior. I was thoroughly confused after that- it's not a term I've heard in this context. I am pretty disheartened right now with Church. My faith in Jesus Christ has not waned, but looking for a church is proving to be labor intensive :)

Thanks again.
sonya


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Sonya

 2007/10/14 22:31Profile
running2win
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Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Re:

Quote:
The remission of sins only come through being water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ-thus, if one has not been baptized in the name of Jesus they are still in sin, or better yet, sin is still in them.


How so? This looks like salvation by baptism docrine to me. John Wesley (and others) was never baptized after being baptized as an infant.
Quote:
Thanks for responding. It is my understanding that we are baptized because we have received remission of sins through the blood of Jesus Christ (believing that He is the Christ and that He shed His blood on the cross for our sins).


That's exactly the way I understand it. I was born-again and then I was baptized. I'm not born-again [i]because[/i] I was baptized.


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Jeff Mollman

 2007/10/15 8:18Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

running2win wrote:
Quote:
The remission of sins only come through being water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ-thus, if one has not been baptized in the name of Jesus they are still in sin, or better yet, sin is still in them.


How so? This looks like salvation by baptism docrine to me. John Wesley (and others) was never baptized after being baptized as an infant.
Quote:
Thanks for responding. It is my understanding that we are baptized because we have received remission of sins through the blood of Jesus Christ (believing that He is the Christ and that He shed His blood on the cross for our sins).


quote]

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ [b]FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS[/b] and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You cannot be born-again without being born of WATER AND of the Spirit.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of [b]water [/b] AND of the Spirit, he CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Water in this verse is the greek word "hudor" and it's definition is: water
of water in rivers, in fountains, in pools
of the water of the deluge
of water in any of the earth's repositories
of water as the primary element, out of and through which the world that was before the deluge, arose and was compacted
of the waves of the sea
fig used of many people

[url=http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=5204&version=kjv]See the definition of "water" in John 3:5[/url]

This whole principle is the very same thing, that Jesus experiences in Matt 3:

Matt 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the WATER: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the SPIRIT OF GOD descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The heavens "lo, the heavens WERE OPENED UP TO HIM" after he was WATER baptized, THEN the Spirit descended upon him. It was the water baptsim that "OPENED UP THE HEAVENS UNTO HIM" for the Spirit to descend upon him.

Jesus was not talking about water in a womans womb at natural birth-we know this, because the same principle as John 3:5,& Matt 3:13-17 is carried out in Acts 10:44-48

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid WATER, that these should not be BAPTIZED, WHICH have RECEIVED HOLY GHOST as well as we? 48 And he COMMANDED them to be BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Verse 47 Can ANY [b]MAN FORBID WATER[/b]..
Is Peter talking about the water/fluid in a mothers womb-[b][size=medium]NO[/size][/b]
because he goes on to say "...that these should not be [b]BAPTIZED WHICH HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL AS WE[/b]

Peter was talking to GROWN MEN, just like Jesus was when talking to Nicodemus.

Vers 48 Then he commanded them to be BAPTIZED in the name of the Lord.

What is the name of the Lord?-Jesus Christ

This is again the third time where Peter tells people to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized EVERYONE OF YOU, [b]IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS[/b].."

Acts 10:48 48 And he COMMANDED them to be BAPTIZED [b]IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.[/b]

 2007/10/15 11:33Profile
running2win
Member



Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Re:

Quote:
...that these should not be BAPTIZED WHICH HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL AS WE


But how could they have received the Holy Ghost if (as you say) their sins were still in them and they in their sins? Your understanding of scripture is inconsistant here. A person can't be filled with the Holy Ghost as Cornelius and his household were for what fellowship hath light with darkness. John said that whosoever [b][i]BELIEVETH[/i][/b] on him should [b]NOT PERISH[/b] but have everlasting life. He didn't say that whosever gets baptized should not perish.
According to you John Wesley is burning hell as we converse and Luther and many others. Their lives speak for themselves so I don't need to try and prove to you that they were men of God.
To me that understanding of the doctrine of baptism is a dangerous one to hold.


_________________
Jeff Mollman

 2007/10/15 13:28Profile









 Re:

Hi Sonya,

You bring up a very good question -this is certainly a very important issue and is essential to have our doctrine to be correct concerning this, seeing it is a salvation issue. You said:

Quote:
This morning I attended Sunday school at an Apostolic church and the teacher mentioned the importance of being baptized in Jesus' name only. She referenced Jesus' commandment to go out into all the earth...baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit... but noted that the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus (or Christ) suggesting that the deed took precedence over the commandment.



This is a huge 'red flag' right here. She begins by quoting Jesus when He commanded His apostles (and us) to baptize all converts in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, but then she goes on to "explain away" what Jesus said and to basically say it doesn't apply to us. This is the area of specialty for cults and heretical sects; to take scripture and twist it, explaining it away, while conveniently quoting only the scriptures that can easily be 'read into' to develop their own pet doctrine and to support their own preconceived views. Whenever somebody explains away a clear command of Jesus, saying it doesn't apply, RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!! In the very next verse, after Jesus says to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, He says, "Teaching them to observe [u]all things whatsoever I have commanded you[/u]: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." -Mat 28:20. We are to teach and practice ALL THINGS THAT JESUS COMMANDED. What right do we have to explain it away? This is to twist and pervert scripture and to "take away from the words of this book", something commonly done among modern day theologians who want to explain away all the 'hard sayings' of Jesus to make the gate that leads to life broader than it really is.

Let me answer her three implications:

Quote:
1) baptism is necessary for salvation



Though baptism is very important and is commanded by Jesus, it is certainly not "neccesary for salvation". Scripture says, [i]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)[/i] We are saved by God's grace alone, and that through faith, which is itself the gift of God. We are not saved by grace through baptism, but grace through faith!

[i]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
(Romans 3:23-28)[/i]

We are justified (declared righteous and restored to right relationship with God through forgiveness of sins) freely through the redemption that is in Jesus (through His finished work on the Cross) through faith alone in the merits of His shed blood that atoned for our sin in full. We are justified by faith alone, by beliving in Jesus, apart from any deeds or works.

I would reccomend reading all of Romans chapter 4 and 5, talking about justification by faith. In Romans 4, circumcision is a 'foreshadow' of baptism. Both are symbolic of cutting away wickedness from the heart and a covenant sign of faith in the true God. Also read Galtians chapter 3, which speaks of justification by faith alone.

[i]And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:14-18)[/i]. According to Jesus, whoever believes in Him (with a true, living faith) has everlasting life. Period.

[i]For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:3-7)[/i]

There are MANY, MANY other scriptures we could quote, but this is sufficient enough alone to prove the case that salvation is by grace through faith alone, apart from any works.

Quote:
2) baptizing is the means by which people are filled with the Holy Spirit (as if it were a separate event)



This is not true and contradicts the whole of Scripture. John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb:

[i]And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and [u]he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.[/u] (Luke 1:12-15)[/i]

And we must remember, John the Baptist was still under the old covenant. So if he could be filled with the Spirit from his mothers womb under the old covenant, without being baptised, when grace through Christ was not yet revealed in full and when His blood was not yet shed for the remission of sins, then how much more can we be saved and filled with the Spirit now that we are under grace, apart from any "extra" condition, such as baptism?

Once again, when Peter went and preached to Cornelius, the Holy Spirit fell on him and his household when he wasn't even baptised yet:

[i]While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (Acts 10:44-48)[/i]

This PROVES beyond a doubt that baptism is NOT THE MEANS by which one is filled with the Holy Spirit. We receive the Holy Spirit when we believe in Christ being justified by faith alone:

[i]O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. (Galatians 3:1-7)[/i]

We receive the Holy Spirit by the promise of God through faith, not through baptism.

Quote:
3)If an individual has not been baptized in the name of Jesus only, then he or she is not saved.



If this is true, then EVERY SINGLE BELIEVER IN THE OLD TESTAMENT IS NOT SAVED. This is absurd. This also means that the thief on the cross was not saved, even though Jesus told him he was, because he was never baptised nor did he speak in tongues. It is not different under the New Covenant either, for under both covenants men were justified by faith apart from works (read Romans 4 and Hebrews 11). Is the grace that saves greater under the Old Testament than it is under the New Testament? Why can men be saved by faith ALONE apart from even baptism under the Old and not under the New? What then do you do with the MANY NT scriptures that overwhelmingly speak of being saved by grace through faith alone?

Quote:
It is my understanding that we are baptized because we have received remission of sins through the blood of Jesus Christ (believing that He is the Christ and that He shed His blood on the cross for our sins).



Your understanding is correct. Do not let the grace of God be perverted by the doctrines of men!

Quote:
My faith in Jesus Christ has not waned, but looking for a church is proving to be labor intensive



We must remember that the Church is not a building or a denomination, but the people of God who are His saints, His "called out ones" who have been born again by the Spirit and placed by God into the Body of Christ. Looking for a local fellowship can be very disheartening in modern times. There is error and heresy on all sides, as the Apostles of our Lord warned. They prophsied of a great falling away before the man of sin is revealed, and this is what we are seeing. Much of the institutional church is built on the traditions and doctrines of men, not on the Solid Rock of [u]CHRIST ALONE[/u]. Run from these places, run for your life! Beware of the leaven of the pharisees! Seek God, fast and pray in earnest, and He will lead you where He wants you in His perfect will! Don't run ahead of God and get sucked into a false doctrine or counterfeit church, seek His face and He will lead you as the Good Shepherd! His sheep know His voice and another shepherd they will not follow!

These deceivers call themselves Apostolic, but nothing could be further from the truth. There is division from the Body of Christ around the world, the sectarian spirit, faction, and more all because of a false doctrine.

[i]"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, [u]seditions, heresies,[/u] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)[/i]

I reccomend the following link for more information on this subject:

http://www.carm.org/oneness.htm

 2007/10/15 20:11





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