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shazbot
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Joined: 2004/2/11
Posts: 60
USA

 Motive and Repentance

This question was spurred from the online seminar on Thursday, a point of which was something like this:

Repentance must come out of the sorrow of injury to God, not sorrow from the consequences of our sin.

But, if God waited until our motives were completely pure and selfless (i.e., repenting because we care about God, not ourselves) then heaven would be empty, because although our spirit is freed from slavery to sin when we receive Christ, our mind and body are still a slave to sin.

Would God really command us to do something that was impossible, though? This would put serious flaws in His goodness.

Let the thoughts and discussion commence.

 2004/5/20 22:05Profile
DelightedInU
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Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 102
Escondido, CA

 Re: Motive and Repentance

Yes, I think you are right. Most people don't come to the Lord because they realize His holiness but because they realize how unholy and sinful they are. I've been reading "Ten Shekels and a Shirt" and it talks about that too. I can say that my motive for coming to the Lord was so that I wouldn't go to hell. What got me to come to the Lord was that I realized I needed a Savior. My motive wasn't to glorify God or serve Him. I didn't know anything about that. The only thing I knew was that I was a sinner who needed the Savior, so that I wouldn't go to hell. Over time, God changed my heart and it wasn't because of heaven anymore, but because of Him and who He is. Just like the song says, "come just as you are". You don't need to get all fixed up and come for the right reasons. God will work that in you later. Like you said, if we all tried to get the motive right first, we would never come. Cause we can't do it in our own strength. We need God to change us. I don't think it's important how we came to the Lord. Just as long as we came... wrong motives or not. We are with Him forever! How great is that!?!


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Jennifer

 2004/5/21 12:33Profile
KeithLaMothe
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Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re: Motive and Repentance

Quote:
Would God really command us to do something that was impossible, though?

That question goes right to the heart of the difference between major theologies, or so I think. Pelagius, as I recall, believed "command implies ability," and that the people in the old testament (and new) were quite capable of obeying all of God's commandments and living sinless lives. Some of the theological results were doctrines along the lines that regeneration is not supernatural (i.e. all someone has to do is decide to become a Christian, and they can do it without the Spirit working beforehand), and that man either does not suffer from inherited depravity (inherited from Adam, that is) or is capable of overcoming it without special grace.

Pelagius was called a heretic, and I agree. For an interestingly dogmatic statement on doctrine from a man not generally inclined to toss around heresy charges, see Wesley's sermon on Original Sin, particularly what he thinks of those who think men are born in similar conditions to how Adam was before the fall.

I don't believe God would command something literally impossible, though, we could at least theoretically obey in our unregenerate state, we simply have no inclination to do so and will not have such an inclination apart from the working of God.

Quote:
This would put serious flaws in His goodness.

Would it? I defy any imputation of evil to God, no matter what He does. That's my heavily "dependant" view of justice talking :)

The question isn't "would God be good if this is true?" it's "do the Scriptures teach that this is true?"

 2004/5/21 13:19Profile
Yodi
Member



Joined: 2004/4/23
Posts: 663
Escondido, California

 Re: Motive and Repentance

Quote:
Repentance must come out of the sorrow of injury to God, not sorrow from the consequences of our sin.


I must admit, these aren't my original thoughts, but they're from what I remember from a past teaching from one of our youth pastors.

"Sorrow from the consequences of our sin" equals [b]remorse[/b].
"The sorrow of injury to God", plus a 180 degree turn from the very thing that displeased the Lord, equals [b]repentance[/b].

Okay, now these are my thoughts. A good example of repentance is found in Psalm 51 (A psalm of David, regarding the time Nathan the prophet came to him after David had committed adultery with Bathsheba).

Quote:
Would God really command us to do something that was impossible, though? This would put serious flaws in His goodness.


"Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But not with God. Everything is possible with God" (Mark 10:27).

That was Jesus' answer to the disciples' question of, "Then who in the world can be saved?"

I think it's the same with verses like, "Be holy for I am holy". Who can do that?! But we're not holy humanly speaking, we're holy through Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection back to life, and the Holy Spirit living in us. So I guess the answer may be that God commands us to do things that are humanly [b]impossible[/b], but totally [b]possible[/b] through His enabling. We have a little saying around here that goes, "Where God guides, God provides."


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Yolanda Fields

 2004/5/21 13:47Profile
dougkristen
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Joined: 2004/1/28
Posts: 360


 Re: Motive and Repentance

2 Cor 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

This is a scripture reference that points to what we are all expressing Biblically about repentance.

Grace,
Doug


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a Jesus freak

 2004/5/24 13:06Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Thought I would throw this one in there to see how it pertains. It is a rather longish post, but perhaps you could skip to the 3rd part on repentance, would be curious as to thoughts on it:

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2025&forum=40&2]What America Needs To Be Great Again[/url]


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Mike Balog

 2004/5/24 13:48Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Beloved,

At the end of the day the question concerning repentance is whether we want God or we don't. We either want God or we don't. You see, sorrow is common to everyone. This is worldly sorrow. People have regrets every day from the consequences of their actions. People sorrow for a lot of reasons- but that is not repentance that leads to the born again experience. Common worldly sorrow concerns itself with the results of the actions- not with the root cause of the actions. This is not to say that people don't turn to God for relief from their sin. It is to say that sorrow that does not include godly sorrow will not save. It is natural that a person will still have a natural sorrow for their actions. The difference is that they must have godly sorrow or they cannot be saved. Common sorrow may cleanse the eyes- but it can't cleanse the heart.

Say I preach a hell-fire sermon. People see the consequences of their sins and say "WOE- I don't want that!" They then (in theory) begin to change their mind about their sin; i.e., "I don't want the consequences." As they are being turned to God they see Him as He is and begin to count the cost. They must decide if they want God. Their mind must not just change about not wanting sin- it must also change to want God. This is why people "Halt between two opinions." They don't want the flames of hell and they don't want the refining fire of God's Holy Spirit unto holiness.

This is the place where I believe the demonized person who was set free and his house was swept and garnished comes to. He is liberated from Sin- but will not submit to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They cannot serve two masters at once. They cannot glean the benefits of loving God- while in reality they love sin. You may sorrow over your sins in a common way- but you MUST have a godly sorrow or you will not turn from your sin.


Remember when Solomon said that foolishness is bound in the heart of a child- but the rod of correction will DRIVE IT FAR from them? Trouble comes likewise into adults lives and they must decide if they will turn from the sin to God or if the consequences of their sin will merely "Drive it far from them." People who don't repent are like children who forget the spanking and go back to their wrongs. They were not CHANGED- and instead of being born of the Spirit- thay are still bound with foolishness. Spanking after spanking will only yield sorrow and tears until they turn from the sin to God and not merely turning to avoid the consequences. Hell fire salvation must lead to a loving relationship with God or the person will be right back in sin.

You can only scare someone into serving God for so long. People soon forget the consequences of sin. The tears dry up and so does the repentance. We preach repentance to turn the person from their sin and present God to them as an alternative. If they don't want God- no amount of preaching will save them. Week after week and month after month you will "save them with fear" and show them the goodness of God that leads to repentance-- but once they see him and the illumination of the Holy Spirit is there-- they have to CHOOSE God. God makes them choose this day who they will serve.

God Bless and Best Regards in Christ, :-)

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/5/24 14:00Profile
dougkristen
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Joined: 2004/1/28
Posts: 360


 Re: Motive and Repentance

Excellent post Mike on Repentance. I am always mindful that we need to cry out for reptance. The Puritans always wrote in their writings about the "gift of repentance", through crying to the Lord for it. Something we all need to do...

Grace,
Doug


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a Jesus freak

 2004/5/24 14:50Profile
dougkristen
Member



Joined: 2004/1/28
Posts: 360


 Re: Motive and Repentance

Please notice the definition of repentance from this verse:

"Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices" (Ezekiel 14:6).

What sins or "idol's" have you turned away from?

Grace,
Doug


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a Jesus freak

 2004/5/24 14:56Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I greatly agree especially with this part of Bro Mike's post:

Quote:
Why do people not repent? Because they don't want to. They choose it themselves, "No, God, I will not turn to you!" Self-righteousness, self-willed, self- deception is also true. There in Revelation 16, verse 11, the scripture tells us that even though the judgement of God fell, even though the judgment of God will fall on someone, people do not repent. Part of verse 10 and all of 11 says: "...Men gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done."

People don't repent because of self-righteousness, then self-will, finally, they don't repent because of:

3. Self-deception. Self-deception says, "It's not my fault! It's not right, God is not fair!"

Hey, if the truth is known, none of us should be alive right now. I plead for the mercy of God, not justice. And I pray that you do too. And I ask for the mercy of God on our land, not the judgement of God.

Ezekiel 18:32 says: "‘For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone,’ declares the Sovereign Lord. ‘Repent and live!’"

God doesn't want to judge you, He doesn't want to touch this land, but there will come a time of no return when the curtain will finally be drawn on a land that is in rebellion. and a world that is in rebellion. I pray today that you would realize that though you can't repent for America, you can repent for yourself and as a lot of individual selves repent, this nation can turn.

We need the hand of God. What will it take for America to be great again? The key is personal repentance over sin. But when that happens, a fourth thing will come if repentance comes and it truly will make America great again:



The will of man is quite a topic! I made a statement in class yesterday to the effect that people can harden themselves until they can stare hell in the face and not repent. I then think about a message John Macarthur once preached when he made a case for people choosing to go to hell. I'll try to find it and pull a few quotes from it.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/5/24 16:19Profile





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