blazed, I would rather do the forum thing.For 2 reasons 1] I type extremely slow 2] I am a business owner and mightt not answer right away.
But if you want i can do the PM thing.
| 2007/10/11 10:59||Profile|
Blazed, the penticostals believe and are dogmatic about Jesus only baptism.
Regarding that, for now, I will just say:
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in WORD OR DEED, do ALL IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS, giving thanks to God and the Father BY HIM.
Word: refers to preaching, talking, praying or prophesying, exhorting
Deed:refers to praying, preaching, baptizing, laying on of hands, witnessing, loving,rebuking,
ALL: this is plain, simply saying whatever you, do ALL in the name of the Lord Jesus
The last part of the verse is very strong- "... giving thanks to God AND the Father BY HIM (Jesus, or the name of Jesus)
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above EVERY NAME: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, OF THINGS IN HEAVEN, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father
There is no name in existance that the name of Jesus Christ our Lord is not greater than-neither will there ever be according to:
Eph 1: 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, AND EVERY NAME THAT IS NAMED, NOT ONLY IN THIS WORLD, BUT ALSO IN THAT WHICH IS TO COME:
I am not being dogmatic, but whenever you lift up the NAME of JESUS CHRIST, you are doing exactly what Christ said to do: " That If I BE LIFTED UP, even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME"
To preach the name, to lift up the name-is to promote the Man himself. And of course, we all know, one of my personal favorites:
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: FOR THERE IS NONE OTHER NAME under heaven given among men, WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED.
Notice it starts out talking about him, the person, the man "..in any other", but ends by saying we MUST be saved BY THE NAME.
| 2007/10/11 11:03||Profile|
hisremnant, To me,Jesus baptism was way different than ours.
Jesus was never born again
Jessus did not need to repent
Jesus had no sin to confess
As far as I can see Jesus baptism marked the end of something and the beginning of something.
Possibly the end of the levitical priesthood[John the baptist]
And the beginning of the Davidic [melchesidic] priesthood.
I believe Jesus baptism was a priesthood baptism.
John is representative of the old [done away with pristhood]
Jesus is the new high priest.
His baptism by John is fitting and that is why Jeesus said"permit it"
There is only one thing about that: At Jesus's baptism he says this:
Matt 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh US (not just me) TO FULFIL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Jesus once said: John 5:30 I CAN OF MY OWN SELF DO NOTHING: AS I HEAR, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I SEEK NOT MINE OWN WILL, but the will of the Father which hath sent me
And John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear IS NOT MINE, BUT THE FATHER'S WHICH SENT ME.
In other words, it was the Father that told Jesus to be baptized by John-this is why he says " SUFFER IT TO BE SO NOW ( DO IT RIGHT NOW)-because Jesus always obeyed the Father-thus, if Christ
would not have been water baptized, he would have been DISOBEYING the Father, and so would have
John-and that would have been sin!
Aside from that, CHrist said:
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, AND KEEPETH THEM, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Well Christ Commanded his disciples to baptize-but it was not his commandment, it was the Father's Commandment-because Christ only said and did as he heard from the Father.
Matt 28:20 20 Teaching them to observe ALL THINGS whatsoever I have commanded you:
I would also like to say, that we, the Church are a priesthood too-so to say that Jesus baptism was unto priesthood, would still only mean and prove that so are we-the Church supposed to get baptized in order to be in full obedience to the Father.
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Do not the priesthood follow the priest? Do not the sheep follow the Sheperd?
| 2007/10/11 11:19||Profile|
North Central Indiana
Dear Blazedby God: you take exception to my statement but i am only saying the same thing you are. Without faith then repentance there is no salvation. These things precede baptism. Without faith-repentance, baptism is a meaningless ritual. This is the thought i was conveying.
Jesus as we know was without sin. HE was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. i believe this means HIS Father called upon HIM to do so, thus giving the weight of HIS testimony that we should as disciples do the same.
| 2007/10/11 12:05||Profile|
blazed,matt28;19........baptising them in the name of the Father,the Son and the Holy Spirit. These are the words of Jesus. Why would you omit this?
Its like you are getting at something but I dont know what it is.
Do you think I am against invoking the name of Jesus?
I do think we do agree 99%
| 2007/10/11 15:38||Profile|
Matt 28:19. I do not omit this, I wouldn't omit an scripture in the Holy Word of God.
Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, teach all nations baptising them in THE NAME (singular) of THE Father, AND of the Son, AND of the Holy Ghost"
"The NAME" is singular, yet he names 3, but we know the three ARE 1 (not three IN 1)
So let me ask, what is the NAME of the Son?
(Truthfully speaking, Christ is saying that there is one name for ALL three-because the three are one!
He says: "...THE NAME of the Father AND OF the Son..."
In pure/true english, he is saying, the name of Father AND OF the Son-is the same.
I ask you, what is THE NAME of the Son? Whatever the name of the Son is, is the same name OF the Father...also noting that God hath revealed himself to us THROUGH HIS SON.
1 john 5:7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and THESE THREE ARE ONE.
God made man in HIS image, body, spirit & soul-yet I am only one man, with one name-I am not 3 men with 3 different names.
| 2007/10/11 16:16||Profile|
What I was getting at, was yes, Scripturally for the New Testament, saints are to baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
In other words, Jesus gives the command in Matt 28:19, the first time they obeyed this command or preached it, was on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38
Peter was standing there beside Jesus when Christ says : "....baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".
Yet on the Day of Pentecost, Peter is fresh in the Spirit, just received the baptism of the Holy Ghost and when the men asked him what to do: He says
".....and be baptized everyone of you in THE NAME of JESUS CHRIST for the remission of sins,..."
Peter did not disobey the Lord, he obeyed him-and the Spirit even lead him to say that-because Christ said the Comforter, which is the Spirit of TRUTH will lead you into ALL Truth and bring to your remembreance WHATSOEVER THINGS I HAVE SAID UNTO YOU.
Do you think the Holy Ghost got it wrong when speaking through Peter on the day of Pentecost? Even though Peter stood right there beside Jesus during Matt 28:19
Simply put, "THE NAME" of the Father, AND OF the Son, AND OF the Holy Ghost is JESUS
| 2007/10/11 16:31||Profile|
Thank you so much to everybody that responded with their thoughts. I have found 2 or 3 scriptures that I think make a strong point.
Romans 4:14 goes along with something I had already told this man. They are not jews that are one outwardly in the circumcision of the flesh, but he is a jew that is one inwardly, in the circumcision of the heart. Romans 4:14 greatly testifies together with this scripture about the real "baptism" of the heart and where a man is born again. Thanks theopenlife.
Dorcas, in the first link you gave me I found 1 Cor. 1:17. This scripture is very helpful also thank you.
Whether this man agrees with me or not, we have a great love for each other. And we both have a love for God.
I am a pentecostal, and he has church of christ roots. I am glad at these roots of his because he has an unbelievable emphasis on scripture importance. Not that i don't, but this man is a workman that needeth not to be ashamed.
I want to point out one thing that I think is very important to my heart. ROADSIGN, with all love, diane, and with all mercy and humility. Your post greatly angered me. I rarely post my opinions on this sight because it seems as though the most important thing some people can do is come and criticize me and put me down. How do you know anything of this situation and how I am "led by the spirit."
Just a little background. We are starting a church in a small town where I live. We started with a crusade and now we hold a bible study in our home each week and have for about 2 months. This beloved gentleman attended the crusade and then our bible studies. He came to me and wanted to discuss some of our differences because he has a strong belief that the church should be of one mind and one accord.
ROADSIGN, you are accusing me of things you know nothing about. And i must say, this happens almost everytime I post an opinion, somebody feels its important to come and "humble" me by rebuking me when they know nothing about the truth and spirit of this situation. Now i am very sorry to speak this openly and not in a personal message. I am sorry to single you out. You are definitely not the only person that does this. But it is so frequent it keeps me off the posts. I try to speak my heart to edify and help others. And in doing so I am often falsely accused and "stoned" for my efforts.
MC, I wonder why this is so important to YOU, why you need him to change his views before you can enjoy fellowship with him. It looks like he hasn't asked you for insight, and doesn't want it. Maybe you need to let the Spirit do the work, and accept him where he is at right now. Your efforts to change him may merely build walls and create division.
Diane, I love fellowship with this man. He came to me. He wants to discuss these differences. I am letting the Spirit do the work. He asked me to study this topic and seek truth together with him. I am not trying to change him but edify him in a point that the Holy Spirit convicts me that I am correct about. And if the Holy Spirit convicts me of it. I know the answer is also in the written Spirit. So I made this post to tap into the wisdom and counsel of many. I am openly rebuking you because I want to see criticisms of THIS nature stop. You are looking for the bad in my post and not the good. I hope anybody that reads this will listen and understand the fault in this type of manner as well. With all love ROADSIGN, I don't consider myself to be unoffesive in the wrong ways as well. Because I KNOW I AM. Just listen to my gentle rebuke please. If I am out of line in doing this openly, please forgive me.
| 2007/10/13 14:35||Profile|
Phoenix, Arizona USA
Here's something that may be of help, it was written by Wachman Nee...
[url=http://www.whitestoneonline.org/Distinctives/distinctives_study1.htm]Baptism - by Watchman Nee[/url]
| 2007/10/13 16:07||Profile|