SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Promoting Authentic Biblical Christianity.
Looking for free sermon messages?
Sermon Podcast | Audio | Video

Discussion Forum : General Topics : Water baptism essential to salvation.

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Calvin's Commentary on John 3:5. [i]Unless a man be born of water[/i].

This passage has been explained in various ways. Some have thought that the two parts of regeneration are distinctly pointed out, and that by the word Water is denoted the renunciation of the old man, while by the Spirit they have understood the new life. Others think that there is an implied contrast, as if Christ intended to contrast Water and Spirit, which are pure and liquid elements, with the earthly and gross nature of man. Thus they view the language as allegorical, and suppose Christ to have taught that we ought to lay aside the heavy and ponderous mass of the flesh, and to become like water and air, that we may move upwards, or, at least, may not be so much weighed down to the earth. But both opinions appear to me to be at variance with the meaning of Christ.

Chrysostom, with whom the greater part of expounders agree, makes the word Water refer to baptism. The meaning would then be, that by baptism we enter into the kingdom of God, because in baptism we are regenerated by the Spirit of God. Hence arose the belief of the absolute necessity of baptism, in order to the hope of eternal life. But though we were to admit that Christ here speaks of baptism, [b]yet we ought not to press his words so closely as to imagine that he confines salvation to the outward sign[/b]; but, on the contrary, he connects the Water with the Spirit, because under that visible symbol he attests and seals that newness of life which God alone produces in us by his Spirit. It is true that, by neglecting baptism, we are excluded from salvation; and in this sense I acknowledge that it is necessary; [b]but it is absurd to speak of the hope of salvation as confined to the sign. So far as relates to this passage, I cannot bring myself to believe that Christ speaks of baptism; for it would have been inappropriate[/b].*

*bolded for emphasis.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2007/10/10 18:50Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

blazedbyGod,technically you are right. I should have said bornagain
However it is still birth and birth is the subject matter.
Born=birth
....David

 2007/10/10 19:07Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

iansmith,my viewpoint on born again is different.
although i will give what you said much thought. I havent looked at that particular teaching about the Jewish practice=bornagain.. This is a new one on me.
To me I dont extract any of that from what i read of that chapter.
To me it is clear that Jesus is introducing a new concept.
Where did you get this info?
thanks,David

 2007/10/10 19:16Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 997
Germany NRW

 Re:

IanSmith, let me ask you 2 questions from a comment that David Pawson made about Jean Calvin's position on water baptism.
Jean Calvin came to the right conclusion that water baptism was neccessary. Why did he then not teach his followers to practise it? David Pawson believes it was because he founded a state church that had to welcome everyone of its subjects through infant baptism through, mostly sprinkling. State church and water baptism does not go together well. What is your position on this?

My second question is regarding born of water.
I agree with you that the mere act of being dunked in water does not save you if the other aspects of repentance, new life and faith in Christ are not present. If you say you cannot see that Jesus speaks of water baptism, what else do you think he refers to then?

Philip

 2007/10/11 7:34Profile
hisremnant
Member



Joined: 2006/2/2
Posts: 55
North Central Indiana

 Re:

Praise Jesus!!!

Mt 3:15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.

If it was necessary for Jesus why would it not be so for us?

Granted baptism without the quickening (life) of the spirit is nothing. If we take an unrepentant, faithless dry devil and dunk him, all that we have done is make him a wet devil.

However in the very words of Jesus if we have been born of spirit, we should be baptized to fulfill all righteousness.

Ac 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

We see here Peter who has just brought 3000 to conviction (faith) telling them what to do. This includes baptism.

i agree that if you are hanging on a cross or killed on the way to your baptism you will still see Paradise if you have been convicted of who Jesus is.

However that is not most peoples story. So i am convinced that we should be as the eunuch and Philip. Baptized (immersed) straight away.

Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

 2007/10/11 9:01Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

hisremnant wrote:
Granted baptism without the quickening (life) of the spirit is nothing. If we take an unrepentant, faithless dry devil and dunk him, all that we have done is make him a wet devil.
Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17



The Bible teaches that water baptism is for those how have repented upon believing. This is why Christ says:

Mark 16:16 He that BELIEVETH AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved; he that believeth not shall be damned.
In scripture there is NO such thing as believing WITHOUT HAVING REPENTED!!!

Scripture have never taught that baptism was to be done on people who have not Repented.

Again, on the day of Pentecost, Peter brings this out: Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, AND BE BAPTIZED EVERYONE OF YOU...." (not some of you)

Notice Peter did not say believe or have faith in Jesus Christ first( he already preached to them, he told them they Crucified Him, and he preached him as both Lord & Christ, however, whent they asked him what should they do-He said REPENT, Peter did not say Receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost first, he said REPENT. Then he goes on to speak of water baptism BEFORE being Spirit baptized:

This is plain and simple, the words of Christ:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

There is no way around that. And let me also say this, simply having the Spirit is NOT enough either. The word of God says:

1 John 5: 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is he that came BY WATER AND BLOOD, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water AND blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness IN THE EARTH, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: AND THESE THREE AGREE IN ONE.

It is the Spirit, the water, and the blood that agree in ONE that make salvation. You cannot say, only Spirit baptism matters, you cannot say only water baptism matters, you cannot even say only the Blood of Jesus matters-you MUST have all three that AGREE IN ONE!! Who is that "ONE"-Jesus Christ!

View the baptism of Jesus Christ:
Matt 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, WHEN HE WAS BAPTIZED, went up straightway OUT OF THE WATER: and, lo, THE HEAVENS WERE OPENED UNTO HIM, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

When did the "heavens" open up unto Jesus? The answer is AFTER he was WATER baptized, NOT SPIRIT BAPTIZED. He was water baptized FIRST-then the Heavens opened unto him and the Spirit descended upon him.

It is not Spirit baptism that opens up the heavens to us-that is plainly seen and clear in Matt 3:16.

 2007/10/11 9:48Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
I am having an issue with a Christ loving gentleman that believes you aren't saved until you are baptized in water.

This man understanding this point is very important for this man to be in one accord with the rest of our church.



MC, I wonder why this is so important to YOU, why you need him to change his views before you can enjoy fellowship with him. It looks like he hasn't asked you for insight, and doesn't want it. Maybe you need to let the Spirit do the work, and accept him where he is at right now. Your efforts to change him may merely build walls and create division.

Let's admit, many in our churches are trusting in something they did, be it baptism, or whatever. However, they may not even be aware of it at all - until the Spirit enlightens them.

Even if you manage to convince your friend, you still can't change his heart. Only God can. Why not leave him with God, and allow God to teach you through this man. Perhaps he can see some of your blind spots. Maybe down the road, after you've built a relationship of mutual trust, you can talk about baptism - when you are both free from the need to prove yourself right.


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/10/11 9:54Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Blazed, the penticostals believe and are dogmatic about Jesus only baptism. Church of christ belives witout baptism you arent born again. I have discussed this with both groups.
.....and got nowhere.
Even if you preface the discussion with "I dont want this to divide us" they will still make it a "doctrinee of division"
That is how dogmatic these 2 groups are.
.....David

 2007/10/11 10:30Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
Blazed, the penticostals believe and are dogmatic about Jesus only baptism. Church of christ belives witout baptism you arent born again. I have discussed this with both groups.
.....and got nowhere.
Even if you preface the discussion with "I dont want this to divide us" they will still make it a "doctrinee of division"
That is how dogmatic these 2 groups are.
.....David



David, if you do not mind, I am going to send you a private message on here-where we can discuss this a little more in detail if you like.

I wouldn't mind having the discussion with you, and I believe that if we continue honestly and sincerely that the Lord will give us a direct answer from scripture. Is this ok with you?

 2007/10/11 10:46Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

hisremnant, To me,Jesus baptism was way different than ours.
Jesus was never born again
Jessus did not need to repent
Jesus had no sin to confess
As far as I can see Jesus baptism marked the end of something and the beginning of something.
Possibly the end of the levitical priesthood[John the baptist]
And the beginning of the Davidic [melchesidic] priesthood.
I believe Jesus baptism was a priesthood baptism.
John is representative of the old [done away with pristhood]
Jesus is the new high priest.
His baptism by John is fitting and that is why Jeesus said"permit it"
....David

 2007/10/11 10:52Profile





©2002-2019 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy