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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Water baptism essential to salvation.

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BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:
"Read Acts chapter 10, I didn't know God was in the business of regenerating men through the indwelling Holy Spirit when they are not as you put it "born again". The Holy Spirit came upon the believers and they praised God before they were water baptized

Acts 10 is one of my favorite verses. I guess you didn't read verse 47 & 48:
Acts 10:47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he COMMANDED them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

The Bible did not say that they were regenerate upon receiving the Holy Ghost, that is simply just one part of being born-again.

Jesus Christ himself was water baptized BEFORE the Spirit descended upon him like a dove lightening upon him. One can either be water baptized first, then Spirit, or Spirit first, then water baptized.

Born-again is the very words of Jesus Christ- not " ..as I put it"

John 3:33 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

For the record being born again means being regenerated!

And I'm sorry, but whosever and whatever theologian said that water in this verse means when the water in a mother's womb breaks is unscriptual and not true.

Here is the greek word for "water" in the verse:
Hudor
water
of water in rivers, in fountains, in pools of the water of the deluge of water in any of the earth's repositories of water as the primary element, out of and through which the world that was before the deluge, arose and was compacted of the waves of the sea.

In other words, simply water, H20! Jesus is talking about being born-AGAIN, not simply being born. "AGAIN"-just like in REgenerate-which means to do " AGAIN"

Also, the Bible NEVER says that water baptism is only for outward show or appearance-why would you need to do it for that reason if you have already PUBLICLY CONFESSED Christ before men-the Bible says water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is " FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS"!

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Bible says we have connection to his death BY BAPTISM:
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were BAPTIZED into Jesus Christ were BAPTIZED into his death? 4 Therefore we are BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM into death: that like as Christ was RAISED UP from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

The words of Christ:
Mark 16:16 He that believeth AND is baptized SHALL BE SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

"And" is a cunjunction-you cannot have one without the other-just like in John 3:5 Except a man BE born of WATER AND of THE SPIRIT HE CANNOT ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.




 2007/10/10 15:37Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

blazedbyGod, It really does look like Jesus is talking about natural birth.To make it say water baptism disrupts the flow of the context. I think if you reread vs4-8 and keep in mind Jesus is answering nicodemas you will have a different view.
I tried to insert baptism into the sentence and it didnt fit. especially vs 6.
.....David

 2007/10/10 16:02Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Jesus said: Except a MAN (not child, not infant, not baby) be born again.

Nicodemus said how can a man do that WHEN I AM OLD? can I enter the SECOND TIME into my mothers womb and be born?

Jesus responded: Except a MAN be born of WATER (doesn't mention a mother NO WHERE!!!) AND the Spirit; he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

Jesus said "Except"- there is not a person on earth, who before they were born their mother's water didn't break-everyone's mother's water breaks when she is about to give NATURAL birth-..but Jesus says "EXCEPT"...even Jesus, when he was born Mary's water broke, .....but 30 years later in Matt 3:13-17 you see John the Baptist WATER baptizing Jesus and the HEAVENS OPENING UP UNTO JESUS AND THE SPIRIT DESCENDS ON JESUS.

The Spirit descended on Jesus AFTER water baptism-not when he was born from his mothers womb!

Matt 3:13-17 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh US to fulfil ALL righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the WATER: and, lo, the HEAVENS WERE OPENED UNTO HIM, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


 2007/10/10 16:13Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

1 Peter 3:21 - "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

The thief on the cross was baptized... with the baptism that saves!

I understand the fears because I harbored them myself, but the water-baptism-to-save system is sacramental and Roman.

We get water baptized as an obedience to testify to ourselves and the witnesses of our death with Christ, which presupposes that we have already died with Him.

 2007/10/10 17:04Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Blazed, you're reading something that just isn't there. And there are exceptions even in scripture.

John the Baptist was annointed with the Spirit even within his mother's womb. In the context of the verse you are referencing the correct understanding of the verse is that 'be born of water' is a reference to natural birth... the focuse of the verse is on the Spirit, the Spirit is the imporant requisite to entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.

How one recieves the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is greatly disputed, and throughout Christian history and across denominational lines there are many different answers... but instead of looking for a formula, look for the results.

1 Sam 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: [b]and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward[/b]. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

David recieved the Baptism of the Spirit without a water baptism. There are so many other examples which break down any formulas people put forward for Salvation. God's eyes are on the heart of the man.

Remember, Jesus was concerned with circumsized hearts, not a physical one. The same can be applied to a baptism... someone can be a follower of Jesus in their heart, and not be baptised, and they will not be denied a place in the Kingdom of God for the lack of any observance.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2007/10/10 17:04Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

BlazedbyGod, carefully consider what is being compared here."that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit".....is being compared to......."Except a man be born of water and of the spirit......"
I dont know about you but I cant make that say water baptism.
Remember the subject mater is "birth"
So i cant imagine Jesus is NOT comparing the 2[natural and spiritual birth]
Make sense?
....David

 2007/10/10 17:25Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

BlazedbyGod, Do you believe Jesus baptism was differrent than our baptism?
thanks, David

 2007/10/10 17:28Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
BlazedbyGod, carefully consider what is being compared here."that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit".....is being compared to......."Except a man be born of water and of the spirit......"
I dont know about you but I cant make that say water baptism.
Remember the subject mater is "birth"
So i cant imagine Jesus is NOT comparing the 2[natural and spiritual birth]
Make sense?
....David



Hey David, Peace be upon you.

The subject matter is not birth-rather, it is, to be BORN-AGAIN.

If Jesus is referring to natural birth, then none of us are born-AGAIN-because as Nic said, we would have to enter into THE SECOND TIME our mother's womb?

This is the direct statement that Nic asks. THen he even speaks naturally, he says "..how can a MAN be born (natural birth) when HE IS OLD? can he enter the second time enter his mother's womb and be born? (This is verse 4)

If Jesus was speaking of NATURAL birth,then why does he make the statement. " Except a man be born AGAIN"

If Jesus was speaking of NATURAL birth, then we ALL must get back in our mothers womb for the second time and be born again-because Christ is talking about being born-AGAIN, not being born the first time.

 2007/10/10 17:47Profile
narrowpath
Member



Joined: 2005/1/9
Posts: 997
Germany NRW

 Re:

Has anyone of you thought about why God actually ordained such a seemingly plain and simple ritual or sacrament as water baptism? Why did not repentance, faith and filling with the Spirit suffice for salvation?

Why was John the Baptist called the Baptist and not just the repentance preacher? Baptism finalized the initial act of repentance in a public declaration before God and man: I am dead to sin and alive to Christ! If you do not want to get baptized, you most likely haven't finished repenting or you do not quite belive in Jesus.

I believe it is an outward sign of an inner reality of a believer. It is a devine reality check. If you meet a Christian who struggles to obey the simple command of water baptism, he usually struggles to let go of his past life. He is not yet willing to die to self. He still loves his old life more than the Kingdom of God or he is not taught propperly.

Jesus is very black and white, he is either or , yes yes or no no.

We sometimes hear of Christians converts from Moslem of Jewish background that once they decided to get baptised in water, hell breaks loose against them.

Well, there may be dear brothers who are in denominations that do not practise water baptism.
But why then do they compromise on this command for the sake of keeping company with those who compromise scripture. Compromising scripture always come at a cost for your spiritual life.

I agreed with BlazedbyGod on John 3:5
Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

Take this verse in its plainest in simplest meaning.

Modern days evangelism promotes the sinners prayer as an entry into the kingdom of God. This is one of the reasons why our churches are full of unbelievers who think they are saved.

Jesus said in Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

If this is true of modern day evangelism then our churches are full of people who are to become twice the sons of hell. A very sobering thought.

I do not see that scripture allows any ommittance of water baptism in the process of the conversion of a sinner.

Matthew 5:19
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

If this is said about the smallest commandment, what will happend to those who mess with the essentials of the great commission?

Philip

 2007/10/10 17:56Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

The conversation between Nic and Jesus is a very interesting one. You have to understand the Jewish mindset to understand why Nic talks the way that he does.

He answers Jesus "{sarcasm}How can a man be born when he is old?... Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!{/sarcasm}"

You want to know why we know that Nicodemus was being facetious, because the term 'born again.' was very common among the Jews at that time... for proselyte to Judaism. A gentile who wanted to become a Jew had to go through a series of rituals and cleansings in order to become a member of the Jewish community: this was refered to as being 'born again.'

Well here was a young radical rabbi (Jesus) telling one of the leaders of Israel, a highly educated Pharisee, a member of the Jewish Ruling Council, that he, the highest in the Jewish establishment had to humble himself and become a Jew all over again (of course we know that he wasn't suggesting this, but something more).

So of course we can understand Nic's answer, he's taken back, his answer could have been a playful sarcasm, or taking great insult at Jesus' words. But because the conversation continues we can tell that what was said struck a chord with him.

Jesus even says afterwards, "You are Israel's teacher... and do you not understand these things?" Because Jesus wasn't speaking about some new ideas, but about a very commonly known teaching (note: playful sarcasm).

But the focus of v.5-8 shows the most important difference between the teaching for Proselyte Jews and for the early Christian church... not that being born again is a set or rituals that gains you admittance into a club... but that you are actually made a new creation Spiritually by the Blood of Christ.

And here is the verse that puts a nail in the coffin of all of your formulas for salvation: John 3:8 "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

We cannot give any specific formula as to how someone recieves Spiritual birth in Christ, but we can know it by the evidence of it's presence. Just like with the fruit and the vine illustration, we can tell the presence of the Spirit by it's fruits, or in this verse, by the sound of the wind.

If someone is filled with the Spirit, it doesn't matter as much how it got there, but that it is there!

I was Baptised 3 times. Firstly as an infant in the Catholic Church. Sencondly as a teenager in my high school youth group, and third as a young man in my college ministry. I chose to be baptised to show my commitment to the Lord, that I was being identified with his death and resurrection. However, I wouldn't make my salvation dependent on any single observance as I have already stated. Just because someone is baptised does not mean they are saved, and just because someone isn't baptised doesn't mean they aren't.


_________________
Ian Smith

 2007/10/10 18:25Profile





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