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MisterCheez
Member



Joined: 2006/2/22
Posts: 96
Colorado

 Critical Ravenhill

This is not meant to run down a great man of God, it's more of a question:

After listening to a selection of Leonard Ravenhill's sermons, I'm confronted on a number of subjects.

However, besides the obvious truth behind his messages does anyone else wonder about the consistent cheerlessness, criticism and hopelessness he seemingly conveys?

I think (stress the word "think") I heard a David Wilkerson sermon where he said something about Leonard ending up as bitter and unhappy in his later years.

Again, this isn't to run the man down but there seems to be a sour thread (understandably) in much of his teaching and I was curious what others thought and what we might be able to learn from this...


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Brian Erickson

 2007/10/8 11:44Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re: Critical Ravenhill

I belive his consistent cheerlessness as you put it is a godly sorrow, I belive he had a burden larger then most christians. I think he weept more for peoples sin then they themselfes. I belive when we really love, is when we see people as God sees them. And most often that is terrible sight....

his criticism is not so much criticism as it is truth or stated facts in my view

I do think he had joy, i think from what I can hear in his teachings he had a wonderful sense of humor :-) or maybe just me who thinks he does.

I havent been saved so long, but i am already tired of this false and lukewarm "professing" Christianity, what about when seeing it for 50-60 years? as Ravenhill?

Just some thoughts

Christian


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/10/8 11:53Profile
MSeaman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
I belive his consistent cheerlessness as you put it is a godly sorrow, I belive he had a burden larger then most christians. I think he weept more for peoples sin then they themselfes. I belive when we really love, is when we see people as God sees them. And most often that is terrible sight....

his criticism is not so much criticism as it is truth or stated facts in my view

I do think he had joy, i think from what I can hear in his teachings he had a wonderful sense of humor :-) or maybe just me who thinks he does.

I havent been saved so long, but i am already tired of this false and lukewarm "professing" Christianity, what about when seeing it for 50-60 years? as Ravenhill?

Just some thoughts

Christian




I've listened to several of Ravenhill's sermons and I have found the same to be true. Well stated, Christian.


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Melissa

 2007/10/8 12:07Profile









 Re: Critical Ravenhill

I did think that for a while as well, and maybe he didn't show that much joy much of the time! But I also remember hearing a clip from a sermon that he preached, and he sounded like the happiest man alive and was talking about how great God was and how much he loved Him! Was pretty cool, although I can't remember what the sermon was called.

I also think though, as someone mentioned the term earlier in this thread. We can misuse the term 'Godly sorrow'. Yes, it's true that it is real, and we as Christians should all experience it, however that is no reason to be grumpy and unhappy and negative all the time. I should know, I've been there and it's NOT how God would want you to live!

 2007/10/8 12:21
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Leonard Ravenous

One of the employees in the ministry where I work was a member of YWAM missions overseas in the 1980's. He said that by the time that he had joined YWAM Ravenhill and Keith Green had both recieved a odious reputation among YWAMers.

He refered to Leonard Ravenhill as 'Leonard Ravenous.'

One reason I think that Leonard Ravenhill might have been bitter in his old age was that people who were once friends and supporters turned against his teachings (before or soon after his death).

I am reminded of John 6:60,66 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? ... From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

But Leonard Ravenhill rightly defined a [url=http://www.ravenhill.org/prophet.htm]Prophet[/url] in his book 'America is too young to die.' Which starts:

Quote:
The prophet in his day is fully accepted of God and totally rejected by men.

Years back, Dr. Gregory Mantle was right when he said, "No man can be fully accepted until he is totally rejected." The prophet of the Lord is aware of both these experiences. They are his "brand name."

His entire life Ravenhill commited himself to speaking boldy, and sometimes harshly in the name of the Lord. He may have reaped sorrow here in his lifetime, but he will be rewarded with a crown for his obedience to the calling he recieved.


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Ian Smith

 2007/10/8 13:17Profile
dohzman
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Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Maybe?

I think what seems to happen with men and women of God who have been set in place, especially internationally, they seem to be a counter balance to what's happening in the church. Here is what I mean, say a movement is going North at 40 miles per hour, it is the wrong direction, so God raises up a man or woman who will tackle that moving object (in this case it's the church movement), the only way that can be done is to have equal or more force moving at a faster pace heading south, until there's a collision, than the church is forced to stand at the cross roads and make a decision, "choice".

Think about John the baptist, he was an ascetic to the max, self denial plus on steroids, this dude was off the hook, But God (Jesus) praised him and said there no greater prophet than he! That's even better than hearing well done good and faithful servant! He was double blessed in that he obtained a more excellant name on earth as well as in heaven.

If I was to make a guess I would probably say that Ravenhill may sit somewhere in there, one things for sure---- No one will ever die and go to hell by following his doctrine.


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D.Miller

 2007/10/8 13:40Profile









 Re: Maybe?

Jesus was no doubt a man of sorrows.

And the prophet Jeremiah ended up in a state of "lamentations" at the end of his ministry.

I'm told that Leonard ended his life believing that, as a whole, the Church ignored his message.

And today, many who praise the name of Leonard Ravenhill do not actually practice what he taught.

Many today like to listen to these emotionally stirring and convicting messages, but their will never actually changes. It's just a spiritual high for them. It's become the popular thing today to listen to heavy messages. But many are not changed because of it.

 2007/10/8 13:56
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Sometimes it is very hard to sit by and watch things deteriorate as a minister. There is an urgency that increases as time seems to be running out. The challenge is to experience this without coming off as harsh and critical. When I hear Ravenhill I am hearing a man that is very concerned about the state of the Church.

I was recently in with a man that is dying. On this particular day he thought it would be his last. He is very very ill. He called the family over and begin to speak DIRECTLY to them in a very serious and some would argue 'harsh' way. Everyone knew it was a loving plea to WAKE UP before it is too late. He tells the one to stop going to the bars before it sends their soul strait to hell. He begs others to get in church. This went on one by one as he plead with them to turn from their wicked ways and turn to Christ.

Moments like these are not pretty. But it remonds me of Paul in Acts 21 that for 3 years he warned the people [i]night[/i] and [i]day[/i]with [u]tears[/u]. This is urgency. This is the care of the churches. This is a great burden that does not always manifest in ways that are comfortable and delightful. Sometimes it can get very uncomfortable.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/10/8 15:42Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
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Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re: Critical Ravenhill

Hi MisterCheez...

I think that I understand how such a sentiment could be taken from simply listening to some of his messages. However, many of his messages are also mingled with wit and humor that reflect his understanding of the age and his own inner joy in the Lord.

As a young teen, I met with Brother Ravenhill in his home shortly before he died. He was both polite and kind. He was certainly somber -- as serious times merit serious attitudes. But he was also a man who reflected the inner joy of knowing our Lord. He spoke about being heartbroken from realizing the condition of the modern Church. He told me that he was writing a new work entitled "Why Revival STILL Tarries" which was dedicated to those who read the first book ("Why Revival Tarries") yet had done nothing.

Even with the terrible responsibility that comes with the realization of the condition of the modern Church, Brother Ravenhill still seemed to convey a very real joy. In the course of our conversation, he encouraged me to not be discouraged. Even when all hope seems lost -- and both the world and Church may seem to be spiraling into deeper darkness, Brother Ravenhill reminded me that the victory of the ages ultimately belongs to Christ Jesus. No matter how dark it becomes, His Word will not return void.

In the midst of our meeting, Brother Ravenhill wept, warned and laughed (well, "chuckled" might be a better word). He warned me that the cost of "going all the way with God" could result in loneliness. But he smiled and told me that a man of God is NEVER alone. Not only are we surrounded by a "great cloud of witnesses," but we learn to grow ever more dependent upon the Lord for encouragement.

When I first heard a message by Brother Ravenhill, I noticed that he would sometimes jest about natural things. I remember him telling about how his garden fulfills the Word through "faith and works." He said that he has the "faith" while his wife has the "works."

Yet I am so glad that Brother Ravenhill didn't attempt to humor or impress us with a keen wit. Rather, his words have been a wakeup call in my own life. The world is damned. Should we attempt to remain acceptable and cheerful as the world dies -- or should we proclaim the truth as is revealed by God's Word? I think that Brother Ravenhill chose the latter while still encouraging himself in the Lord.

:-)


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Christopher

 2007/10/8 15:54Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Leonard Ravenhill

Like this thread ...

Had the same exact early reaction brother upon wandering into this wonder of wonders, I do believe my initial reaction was that he was "harsh". That later turned to not harsh enough (in many aspects) and to the point now where he is something of a long lost grandfather, perhaps even a spiritual one at that ...

I do cringe a bit when some who have been once impressed, taken or otherwise challenged by this unique man of God now find themselves having ... 'outgrown' him ... maybe and funny but suddenly a Ravenhillesque notion takes hold, doubt they have [i]outgroaned[/i] him.

Our brother I believe had it right, godly sorrow... Have you listened\watched the interview with him brother? The video speaks perhaps better.


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Mike Balog

 2007/10/8 16:10Profile





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