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Lavishes
Member



Joined: 2007/10/5
Posts: 14
Australia

 Holy Ghost Question

What is the difference, if there is a difference, between the Holy Ghost:

- indwelling
- filling
- baptism
- in the power of (The Spirit)

...in the life of a believer and follower of Jesus Christ? Are they one and same thing described in different words or are they indeed different and speak about different things?

Thank you in advance for your responses


_________________
D. C.

 2007/10/5 21:28Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: Holy Ghost Question

Hi lavishes,Let me ask you a question....Do you believe you recieved the Holy Spirit when you were born again?[ I assume you are born again]
.......But tarry in Jerusalem untill you are indued with power


......David

 2007/10/5 21:54Profile
Lavishes
Member



Joined: 2007/10/5
Posts: 14
Australia

 Re: God is Sovereign

Quote:
Hi lavishes,Let me ask you a question....Do you believe you recieved the Holy Spirit when you were born again?[ I assume you are born again]
.......But tarry in Jerusalem untill you are indued with power


......David




Dear David,

In short my answer is yet again a question, did I receive the Holy Spirit when I was born again?



I believe that Salvation is through the Holy Spirit which convicts the sinner of their sins. Upon personal, voluntary decision the sinner confesses their sins and publically declares his need and dependance of the Lordship of Jesus Christ, due to his love for God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.

Is the saved person at this point definitely indwelt by the Holy Spirit? Whatever the case I doubt that he is also baptised with the Spirit or in the power of the Spirit. While there is no exception that the baptism of the Spirit and being the power of the Holy Spirit can take place simultaneously with his conversion and acceptance of Jesus Christ, as with the case of Cornelius, it doesn't appear to be a rule but rather an exception. First conversion then receiving power i.e. being baptised in the Spirit to witness.

Yes David I am a born again believer

Waiting in Jerusalem is not for the Holy Spirit but rather for the power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8), the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Had the disciples gone into the world to preach without power they would not have had the power in the flesh to continue the ministry.

Also I might add that at penticost when they were baptised in the Holy Spirit receiving power to witness God gave them a gift of manifestation, speaking in tongues, or is speaking in tongues tied in together with receiving the Holy Spirit, (receiving power)? Do they come in a "package"? Power to witness and speaking in tongues together? Can you be baptized and receive power from God to witness but not speak in a different language, still speak in your native language but as the Spirit gives?

God bless you exceeding abundantly :-)

D. C.


_________________
D. C.

 2007/10/5 22:25Profile
HopePurifies
Member



Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 181
Georgia, USA

 Re:

I'm not sure lavishes. I know that whoever "does not have the Spirit of Christ is none of His", but I also "know" that Old Testament saints were saved without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that we have available?.


_________________
Melanie

 2007/10/5 23:28Profile
Lavishes
Member



Joined: 2007/10/5
Posts: 14
Australia

 God is in control

Quote:
I'm not sure lavishes. I know that whoever "does not have the Spirit of Christ is none of His", but I also "know" that Old Testament saints were saved without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that we have available?.


Yes if someone doesn't HAVE, but I can have water in my hand, I can have water poured over me, I can have water in my body, I can be covered in water, I can be filled with water, I can be submerged in water and all this time I have water. In the same way to have the Holy Spirit does He necessarily have to be in me for me to qualify as having the Holy Spirit of God? What about the branding of the Holy Spirit, as with a branding iron?

In the Old Testament the Spirit of God would come over the person. They had the Holy Spirit over them. They still have the Holy Spirit, did they not?


_________________
D. C.

 2007/10/5 23:39Profile









 Re: God is in control

I am probably blind to this, but I can't find anywhere in the NT where one has received the holy Spirit when they repent or when someone accepts Christ into their heart. The first thing that happens when we believe is we are justified by faith. Oh boy, I think I just opened a can of worms. :-?

 2007/10/6 0:55
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is:

When you are born again, the spirit of God comes into your heart and soul. You receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. [color=000033]2co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 2co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. [/color] And [color=000033]Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.[/color]

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is:

When you receive the spirit without measure. The word baptize means to submerge. Jesus submerges you in the Holy Spirit so that you have unlimited power. The indwelling of the holy spirit happens when you get saved and God begins to change and sanctify you through this. But, the Baptism in the Holy Spirit happens after conversion and is like a spiritual supercharge. This experience will dramatically increase every area of your spiritual life. This is also when you receive the ability for God to operate the gifts of the holy spirit through you. In the bible, the baptism of the Holy spirit came with the evidence of speaking in tongues, but resulted in far more than just this prayer language which is a topic of its own.

Being filled with the Holy Ghost is:

sometimes the same meaning as being baptized in the Holy Ghost, but also it can be a different meaning, it can be something that happens to somebody that has already been baptized with the holy ghost. Such as it happened to the apostles not long after they were baptized on Pentecost. [color=000033]Ac 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. [/color] A fresh touch. A fresh Anointing. Fresh oil for the candle! When you're ministering effectively, The virtue that is in you gets emptied out onto those around you. [color=000033]Lu 8:46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that VIRTUE is gone out of me. [/color]



The Holy Spirit reproves and shows what sin is. Then He convicts us for our sins. Then he reveals the righteousness of Christ to us. The Holy Spirit is the True Preacher. When a person submits to the Holy Spirits work he dwells in them to give them eternal life. When they are baptized by Jesus into the Holy Spirit, he radically transforms, edifies, and empowers them for ministry. What ministry? the ministry that Jesus started. The ministry that is not of man but of the Holy Spirit, and requires the fullness of the Holy Spirit to do it with maximum efficiency.

"Be filled with the Holy Spirit." This is a commandment! The baptism of the Holy Spirit is only step one of a spirit filled life and ministry. We are to be constantly filled again and again with the Holy Spirit, seeking more power, more boldness, more wonders. In Acts 4:31 the Apostles sought these things so that the word of God could prevail in their society. How badly do we need this in America. Where, as the man that was healed just prior to this prayer of theirs, the message would be "undeniable." Such as when the Holy Ghost gave Stephen such wisdom that they couldn't resist it. Only the Holy Spirit is this powerful. Not a million years of study and not a billion wishes could bring this effect. Only the power of the Holy Spirit and faith in the name of the Holy Child Jesus! Oh God take all that You can from us and may we receive all that we can from You. "Draw nigh unto God and he will draw nigh unto you!" "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man here my voice..." Do you hear him calling you closer and closer!?! Further and further!?! "Let us lay aside every weight" Lets not be held back, Lets take the kingdom of Heaven by force! Be violent in your faith! Take what is rightfully yours by the promise of God and don't let it go!

God has promised us a fullness. A fullness that will change our circumstances. Why would we settle for anything less? The devil has stolen this from so many hearts already. Don't resist the truth of the power of God. Hold fast to it. Don't let that old fowl steal it away from your heart. Let it grow and produce fruit in your life and in the lives around you! [color=990000]TRULY THIS IS THE WILL OF GOD FOR YOU!!![/color]


_________________
Matt Chenier

 2007/10/6 4:02Profile









 Re:

Lavishes said

Quote:
In short my answer is yet again a question, did I receive the Holy Spirit when I was born again?



I believe you just answered your own question that was your "answer... yet a question".

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God... Except a man be born [i]of water[/i] and [i]of the Spirit[/i], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God... That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit..." (JOHN 3:3-6)

If you are truly "born again", you have been born twice; once by water (by your mother, in the flesh) and again by fire (by the Holy Ghost, in the Spirit). If this has happened to you, you ought to be as intimate with the Spirit as you would be with your own mother. If this has happened to you, you are immortal and cannot truly die:

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power..." (REV 20:6)

Water baptism is an outwardly symbolic token of the inward, spiritual baptism of fire that puts to death the "old man" and resurrects the "new man". The old man dies with Christ and is resurrected anew in Spirit - even if that spirit still walks around in a corrupt physical body for a time.

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin...For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God." (ROM 6:6-10)

In other words, a person who's only born once physically must die physically. Since he is a slave to sin like other unregenerate men he cannot approach the Throne of God - he is doomed to die yet a second time in the Lake of Fire. The once-born die twice.

A man who's born twice, once physically and once spiritually (via death and resurrection with Christ) dies a mortal death because he is yet a man, but cannot die the second death because he has also been born of Spirit which is eternal. The twice-born die once.

Therefore, you have correctly answered your question that was an answer, and yet a question.

Quote:
Also I might add that at penticost when they were baptised in the Holy Spirit receiving power to witness God gave them a gift of manifestation, speaking in tongues, or is speaking in tongues tied in together with receiving the Holy Spirit, (receiving power)? Do they come in a "package"? Power to witness and speaking in tongues together? Can you be baptized and receive power from God to witness but not speak in a different language, still speak in your native language but as the Spirit gives?



Brother, seeking after "signs and wonders" is a dangerous affair:

"Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe." (JOHN 4:48)

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that [b]doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven[/b]. [i]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?[/i] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (MATT 7:21-23)

"...Wherefore by their [i]fruits[/i] ye shall know them..." (MATT 7:20)

"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." (MATT 7:19)

Jesus won't be rewarding those who could speak convincingly in tongues or powerfully prophesy good or evil or even those who can fill stadiums and "convert" thousands...

"Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have [i]done it[/i] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me..." (MATT 25:37-40)

"...Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not... Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as [i]ye did it not[/i] to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me." (MATT 25:41-45)

Men and angels aren't judged by their gifts, they're judged by their fruit.

I hope this helps.

 2007/10/6 4:26
Isaiah64
Member



Joined: 2006/9/27
Posts: 85


 Re: Holy Ghost Question

Lavishes, here's a very thorough article that might help you:
---------------------------------------------

[b]BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT[/b]

KEY WORDS: “POUR OUT”, “UPON”, “ANOINTED”, “FALL ON”, “PROMISE”, “BAPTISM”, “FILLED”, “RECEIVE”, “GIFT”, “GIVEN”, “SEAL”, “PLEDGE”, “AND”

BASIC PASSAGES: Joel 2:28-32, Lk 3:15-17, Acts 1:4-8, Acts 2:1-42, Acts 11:15-18
*Note: Acts 11:15-18 (referring back to Acts 10:44-48) shows that the term, “baptized in the Holy Spirit,” applies not only to a once-for-all event at Pentecost, but also to subsequent outpourings of the Spirit upon later individuals.


I. CANNOT BE IDENTIFIED WITH THE NEW BIRTH OR REGENERATION.

1. Even in the O.T., all true saints were regenerate (i.e. the Holy Spirit was within
them). Rom 4:1-25 (esp. v.1-8, 11-12, 18-24); Heb 11:1-40 (cf. 12:1f); 1 Pet 3:1-6; Eph 5:18-19 (cf. Psa 119:47-48, 97 with Rom 8:7-8); Jn 3:10 (cf. v.3-9); Jn 1:47 (cf.Psa 32:1-2); 1 Pet 1:11

2. Our Lord was always a Son, yet needed to receive the anointing of the Spirit prior to His public ministry. Lk 3:21-22; 4:1-2,14,18-19

3. The disciples were regenerate before Pentecost. Mt 16:13-18; Jn 13:10-11 (15:3); Jn 17:6-8

4. The Samaritans were regenerate, yet the Spirit had not yet “fallen on” them. Acts 8:4-8,12,14-17

5. The Ephesian disciples had believed and were baptized (i.e. were regenerate) before
Paul laid his hands on them and the Holy Spirit “came on” them. Acts 19:1-7


II. ALWAYS KNOWN, WONDROUS, SUPERNATUAL, “EXPERIENTIAL”: “AND. . .”

1. Old Testament: Num 11:17, 25-29; Num 24:2-3; Num 27:18-20 (w/ Dt 34:9); Judges 3:10, 6:34, 11:29, 13:25, 14:6, 14:19, 15:14; 1 Sam 10:6f, 19:20-24; 1 Chr 12:18; 2 Chr 15:1-8; 2 Chr 20:14-15; 2 Chr 24:20-22; Isa 11:1-5; Joel 2:28-32;
Micah 3:8

2. New Testament: a) Examples—Mk 1:9-12; Lk 1:41-45,67f; Lk 2:25-32; Acts 2:1f, 4:31, 8:14-19, 10:44-48, 19:2-6; I Ths 1:4-6; Heb 2:4 b) Questions asked and statements made in the N.T. imply that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was
something known. Acts 19:2; Gal 3:2-5; 1 Jn 3:24, 4:13 c) The whole concept of the Holy Spirit as a “seal” (Eph 1:13; Acts 15:8; Rom 5:5; Rom 8:15-16; Jn 6:27 w/1:33 and Mk 1:9-11), a “pledge” (Eph 1:14; 2 Cor 1:21-22, 5:5), and “firstfruits” (Rom 8:23) implies something known.


III. YET, NOT A “SECOND WORK”. (i.e. Not something meant only for advanced Christians, or a guarantee of instant spiritual maturity, but an integral part of the gospel, the privilege of a new convert.)

1. New Christians, babes in Christ: Acts 8:14-15, 9:17, 10:44-48, 19:2-6; Eph 1:13-14; 1 Th 1:4-6; etc.

2. An integral part of the initial gospel message and offer: Acts 2:38-39, 8:16—“yet”, 19:2; 2 Cor 11:4; Tit 3:5-6; Jn 7:37-39; Gal 3:2,5; etc.

3. Not “Christian perfection” or “crucified life”—those who have experienced may yet have much immaturity or fall into sin. 1 Cor 3:1f (cf. 1:4-7, 12:1—14:40); Gal 3:1f


IV. ESPECIALLY RELATES TO ASSURANCE OF SALVATION.

1. General verses—Jn 14:20; Rom 5:5; Rom 8:15-16; Gal 4:6

2. The concept of the “seal” implies this—i.e. a “seal” shows approval, ownership, identification, authentication, security.(Compare Jn 6:27 with Jn 1:33 and Mk 1:9-11. Compare Eph 1:13-14 with Acts 15:8.)


V. RESULTS IN “POWER”, ESPECIALLY TO SPEAK THE THINGS OF GOD (i.e.
“WITNESS” OR “PROPHESY”).

1. General verses—Lk 4:14-18, 24:48-49; Jn 15:26-27; Acts 1:8, 2:4-12, 2:14, 2:17-18, 4:31-33, 5:32, 6:5-10, 9:17-20, 10:45-46, 13:9-10, 19:6; 1 Ths 1:4-8; etc. (cf. O.T.also!)

2. Not “raw” power, but a glory and radiance resulting from a revelation of Christ, of God, and of His truth and works. Jn 14:15-24, 16:12-16; Acts 2:11, 10:46, 19:6


VI. “TONGUES” NOT AN ESSENTIAL ASPECT.

1. Acts 8:14-19, 9:17-18 Tongues not mentioned or necessarily implied. (See Lk 1:41-42, 1:67, 2:25-27.)

2. Acts 2:9-11 Some were from “Judea”, implying that not all spoke in a foreign language (“tongue”).

3. Acts 2:16-20 Peter recognizes Pentecost as a fulfillment of Joel 2, where “prophecy, dreams, visions, wonders, and signs” are the keynote, not “tongues”.

4. All O.T. examples of Spirit-outpouring prove that there is no necessary connection of any kind with tongues. (See verses in II. 1. above.)

5. Tongues were significant and prominent in Acts because: a) The phenomena of Pentecost demonstrated clearly that God was empowering the church to go to “all nations.” (Acts 1:8, Lk 24:47-49, Mt 28:18-20, Gen 11:`1-9) b) The identical phenomenon in the case of Cornelius (Acts 10:44-48) was necessary in order to persuade skeptical Jews that God had truly received the Gentiles. (Acts 11:1-18, esp.v.15-18) c) Tongues were given as a judgmental “sign” to the unbelieving Jews, leading to their hardening. 1 Cor 14:20-23; Acts 2:13; Isa 28:9-13

6. All tongues in the Bible are languages of some sort, including those at Corinth. Acts 2:4-12, 10:46, 19:6; 1 Cor 12:10,28; 13:1; 14:2, 10-11, 13, 17, 19, 21, 26-28; Isa 28:9-13. This implies syntax and content.


VII. NO EXTREME “CONDITIONS”, ONLY TRUE CONVERSION. (i.e. All-out abandonment to the Lord.)

1. General verses—Jn 7:37-39; Acts 2:38-39; Prov 1:23

2. Verses such as Jn 14:21 (cf. v.23-24) and Acts 5:32 (cf. Heb 5:9) refer to the general
“obedience” of the Christian versus the non-Christian, not some special “conditions” for receiving the Spirit.

3. There are no examples of “agonizing” for the Spirit in Scripture, other than the agonizing involved in true repentance and conversion. “Tarry” means “wait”, not “agonize”, and was commanded with reference to the coming historical outpouring of the Spirit upon the church on the day of Pentecost. Acts 2, 4, 8, 10, 19; Gal 3:2-5; cf. all of O.T.

4. Ask! Persist! Jn 4:10; Lk 11:5-13

5. In three of the four relevant cases in Acts, older Christians prayed for new believers via laying on of hands. Acts 8, 9:17-18, 10, 19


VIII. REPEATED SOVEREIGNLY IN TIMES OF NEED, ACCORDING TO GOD’S GOOD PLEASURE. (Sometimes in response to prayer.)

1. General verses—Acts 4:8, 4:31, 13:9, 7:55?

2. Some “crisis experiences” of older Christians fit under this category.


IX. CANNOT “TAKE” BY FAITH.

1. Lk 3:15-17 “He Himself will baptize you.” The baptizer is active , (“baptizes”), and the candidate for baptism is passive, (presents himself, “asks”, “receives”).

2. In every example from Scripture, God is active and man is passive in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. There are no examples of “believing” or “taking” baptism in the Holy Spirit by an act of the human will. See all O.T. examples; Lk 1&2; Acts 2, 4, 8, 10, 19; etc.


X. DIFFERENT THAN THE COMMAND TO “BE FILLED” (EPH 5:15-21).

1. Have been told in Eph 1:13-14 and 4:30 that these people have already experientially “received” the Spirit.

2. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a definite experience at a particular point in time, but
this is a continuous condition (“be being filled”).

3. In baptism in the Spirit, man is passive, but here man is active (a command--something we’re to do).

4. “Be filled” means “be controlled by completely.” Col 1:9; Lk 4:28 Same as the
command to “walk in the Spirit.” (Gal 5:16-26) Those baptized are, at least for the time being, “filled”; those filled have not necessarily just been “baptized.”


Charles Leiter
Pastor—Lake Road Chapel
Kirksville, MO. 63501

 2007/10/6 13:22Profile
BlazedbyGod
Member



Joined: 2007/8/22
Posts: 462


 Re: God is in control

Quote:

Lavishes wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure lavishes. I know that whoever "does not have the Spirit of Christ is none of His", but I also "know" that Old Testament saints were saved without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that we have available?.


Yes if someone doesn't HAVE, but I can have water in my hand, I can have water poured over me, I can have water in my body, I can be covered in water, I can be filled with water, I can be submerged in water and all this time I have water. In the same way to have the Holy Spirit does He necessarily have to be in me for me to qualify as having the Holy Spirit of God?

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth WITH you, AND SHALL BE IN YOU.

 2007/10/6 16:23Profile





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