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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : The Marks Of Cultism - Zac Poonen

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FireinmyBones1
Member



Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

Corey,
Have you actually watched the clip of the movie in the context of the movie or only with the commentary of Barbara Walters or a Heretic Hungry Preacher man? There is NO question whatsoever as to what the kids are doing. To say they are praying to and/or worshipping him is a blatant lie and misrepresentation on your part...(i do believe there is a commandment about bearing false witness or something like that...right? *SARCASM HEAVY*) Be a good student of the word my friend and not a man on a witch hunt - the warning against making images is in the context of idolatrous worship. Otherwise what would you call the bronze serpent, the ark of the covenant, or the tabernacle itself (which according to Hebrews is a shadow of heavenly things i.e. an image of heavenly things) - those were all images! Yet they were not used in an idolatrous matter. These were objects made in the ministry of Moses, the same man who received the law - I belive he would probably understand their interpretation as well.
The children in the "Jesus Camp" movie are NOT (regardless of what you say) worshipping George Bush, perhaps you stumble over the childish way in which it is done but...well they are children you know. If this is idolatry than it is also idolatrous to look at an American flag when praying for our nation, or as I said before looking at China on a map while praying for the nation. If you say that is idolatry then...I'm afraid you might occupy Phariseeville unawaress. Please understand I'm not trying to be rude, but trying to prevent you and others from making the foolish mistake of speaking hastily concerning things they know nothing of. If those young children are sincerely praying and interceding for our president (which wouldn't be a bad idea for us as well...)and we are then calling it idolatry...well we are calling a precious thing wicked. And my friend, that is not good.
I only say be careful with your words.
just my thoughts
Jeff


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Jeff

 2007/10/31 1:08Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone.


I once encountered a group of people preaching downtown here that told me when I knelt to place a present at the base of a Christmas tree, that I was bowing down to it.


That is what [b]they[/b] claimed.



I doubt too that the High Priest that went in to offer the Atonement, worshipped the image of the angels on the Ark of the Covenant. Or that those who were healed by looking with faith upon the brasen serpent, worshipped it also. That came later I think, to a later generation.


God knoweth the heart.


Let us beware of evil surmisings brothers.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/10/31 1:39Profile









 Re:

FireinmyBones1 said

Quote:
Have you actually watched the clip of the movie in the context of the movie or only with the commentary of Barbara Walters or a Heretic Hungry Preacher man? There is NO question whatsoever as to what the kids are doing. To say they are praying to and/or worshipping him is a blatant lie and misrepresentation on your part...



Yes, I've watched "Jesus Camp".

I watched as the children were shamed into admitting the sinful things they may have thought or said on playgrounds.

I saw them don camoflauge outfits, cover their faces with green and black makeup, and dance to "religious rock" as they beat the air with sticks... you know, "warring for Jesus"...

I saw children as young as four weeping and wailing as they held plastic medical models of fetuses... as they were taught the horrifying truths about abortion... four years old...

I watched homeschooled children learn from "Creationist" textbooks that pollution, greenhouse gases, and global warming are a hoax and untrue... tell that to the polar bears...

And I saw a Jezebel bring a cutout of the President onto the stage, introduce this thing as "The President", and watched in horror as the children bowed down and prayed to it.

Watch the movie and see what I mean.

 2007/10/31 2:46
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

May I add a little humor here?

Some members of si have a "graven image" under their nick name!


Just kidding! Lighten up dude!!!!


David

 2007/10/31 12:09Profile









 Re:

psalm1 said

Quote:
Some members of si have a "graven image" under their nick name!



Surely you don't think anything called an "avatar" or an "icon" could be idolotrous...?

I just looked up these two words... you may be on to something.

 2007/10/31 14:29
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

i would like a picture of lester roloff under mine

 2007/10/31 14:42Profile
FireinmyBones1
Member



Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

Corey,
I have watched the movie and wept under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Is this approach to children's ministry revolutionary and "hardcore" certainly-when compared to modern day churchianity. I still don't see any evidence of the kids praying to the "image" of president Bush. I dunno - but I'll end this fruitless arguement - please forgive me if I've seemed contentious w/you, it was certainly not my intent. Bless you my brother
Jeff


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Jeff

 2007/10/31 15:30Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

the whole "spirit" in that movie is just creepy..... who in their right mind would send their child to such a place? and can anyone show one single verse in scripture that says to send your child away to someone else for learning the things of God?

it is not in the bible...the whole thing is just a western way of getting "out of responsibility" and give it over to a camp or even sunday school....but it wont hold up on judgment day.... we are called to teach our own kids....

its not George Bush in that movie, it is the whole thing....


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/10/31 15:33Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: Jesus Camp

I saw the movie Jesus Camp, and would say that Corey has a legitimate concern. The “child evangelism” organization fit Poonen’s description of cultism. The “evangelist” was a cult-like controller.

Regarding the life-sized paper cut-out: the lady was trying to get the kids to pray for the president – but she was really manipulating their minds and emotions. This is not the true spirit of prayer, but of control. And, yes, Corrie, I think she had googly-eyes for the President. She seemed to believe that he was the means of security and salvation for the nation - thus the frantic need to "pray". But the real concern was her tendency to place unreasonable burdens on the kids - that aught not to be imposed on their young tender minds.

I was disturbed that more adults didn’t see any problem with this. The parents seemed oblivious to the deception, and eagerly handed over their children. That’s what was most eerie about it all! The children were being programmed to fall into worse cults in their future.

Quote:
we are called to teach our own kids....


But a lot of those parents WERE homeschooling! That was part of the problem!

Diane


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Diane

 2007/10/31 21:58Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Regarding the life-sized paper cut-out: the lady was trying to get the kids to pray for the president – but she was really manipulating their minds and emotions.



This may be, but there is a world of difference between praying [i]to[/i] and [i]for[/i] someone. I don't think anyone in their right mind is dumb enough to actually pray [i]to[/i] President Bush as though he were some sort of deity or Babylonian idol. Even the most brazen of the pseudo-christian cults aren't dumb enough to pray directly to a secular figure...especially one so flawed and stigmatized as President George Bush. What is being done here is sensationalizing the situation to the extreme by creating some kind of late-night AM radio hype akin to flying saucer and bigfoot sightings. "Kids at Christian camps are being zombified by the evil babylonian system to bow down and worship a paper image of President Bush!"

These are just the sort of unsubstantiated surmizings that happen when a person becomes overly bitter and critical due to a hidden issue. Everything they don't agree with becomes Babylon, anything not radically steeped in anti-traditonal evangelicalism is of Baal. Everyone is the enemy and automatically under suspicion if they are not a fire-breathing, angry proponent of their camp. It's sad that many live their Christian life under this bondage and have no rest with the constant paranoia and outer scrutiny. There's no joy of the Lord with this mindset, as every conversation invariably shifts to conspiracies and woes and outlandish accusations of all sorts. It's a slippery slope, and I've seen many go down it and never recover. In their insatiable quest to "flee Baal", they instead shackle themselves to an even greater idol: the delusion of spiritual elitism by what they do or don't do; by what church they attend or don't attend. They hurl scripture like cannon fire from behind a cold and lonely fortress, not realizing that the stronghold they fight from is their own crypt.

Brother Paul

(edit) p.s. The stuff they're doing is really hokey, no question, and I agree with Christian and Diane here. The kids were not "worshipping" and "bowing down to" Bush; they were interceeding, blessing him, and "doing warfare" over him. Creepy, nonetheless. Just goes to show that you can follow scripture to the word (pray for the king, and those in leadership) and yet create an atmosphere that sends up red flags everywhere.


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Paul Frederick West

 2007/10/31 22:58Profile





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