| Did Jesus Choose?|
I was at a Bible study last night and we were talking about Christ being reluctant("take this cup") to go to the cross but deciding to follow the will of the Father.
I've been thinking about a question. If Jesus was fully man and fully God(and He was) was it really possible for him to choose something in rebellion to the Fathers will? I realize that because He was human, He was tempted and had contrary desires, but could He have actually decided NOT to die. Wouldn't that have been sin? If Jesus had sinned, He would not have been God! God is not double minded. I know this might open the door to thoughts about "sinless perfection" through Christ in us, I don't really want to go there. I just wanted to know if anyone had any input
| 2007/10/3 6:51||Profile|
| Re: Did Jesus Choose?|
I started to write a few paragraphs to answer, but decided it made no sense except to me so I will try to simplify and say this: No Jesus couldn't have chosen not to go because He is God. He had no will of His own, only that of the Father. Scripture states this clearly.
If you want me to elaborate, I'll try to collect my thoughts into something coherent.
| 2007/10/3 9:59||Profile|
I have heard teaching throughtout my life that puts emphasis on the "choice" that Jesus made. For instance, "He could have called down 10,000 angels to take Him off the cross if he had wanted to, but He loved us so much that He chose to die"
What do you make of this?
| 2007/10/3 10:17||Profile|
I have also heard this, but I cannot believe that Jesus Christ would have gone against His Father. In His whole life, He never did anything except what the Father told Him to do. He made that statement several times in the Gospels. Jesus made His choice before He was born, if that makes sense? Once He came in the flesh, His course was set. Please let us continue this conversation and if you'd like, I will find the Scripture on which I base my belief.
| 2007/10/3 10:35||Profile|
El Paso, Texas
In discussing this issue, we must remember that Jesus was fully God, and fully man. While Christ was and is God, and it was Jesus will that He die on the cross.
So, Jesus, as God would not go against His own will. However, remembering that He was also a man, it was His physical body, and physical mind which was afraid of the cross.
Now, Christ was not afraid of the physical cross, that would be almost ludicrous, becaus thousands of Christ's disciples have gone to their martyrdom rejoicing, as they die. Read Hebrews 11 where some would not accept release from prison, as they wanted a more glorious ressurection. So we can understand that if the followers were not afraid to die, then neither would the captain be such.
So what was Christ afraid of? It was the wrath of God, He was fearful in His physical body of the wrath of God, and in His physical body, did not want to taste of the wrath of God. For who can taste the wrath of God, and live?
So it makes more sense in the light of understanding what Christ was afraid of, and how the battle was not between Christ (God) and the Father, but it was between his human frame, and the will of God. And He chose with His human body to partake of the wrath of God.
| 2007/10/3 11:43||Profile|
Ben Williams...you said that so much better than I did! :-D
| 2007/10/3 12:05||Profile|
So what was Christ afraid of? It was the wrath of God,
I've wondered about that interpretation. If it is so, then the disciples must have also tasted the wrath of God, right?
Mar 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
| 2007/10/3 12:48||Profile|
I thought it was the fact that all the sins of the world were placed on Him and that God was going to turn His face away from Him, that made Jesus ask for the cup to be taken...
| 2007/10/3 13:38||Profile|
| Re: Did Jesus Choose?|
I also started answering earlier, but felt I should wait and see how others would respond - if at all. I forgot how emotive the matter of choice is, over there.
First, I agree with Melissa that He chose to die before He was ever incarnate, because He was the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. The Godhead had a plan which They had already begun to put into effect, before Adam was formed from the dust of the ground.
Ben makes good points about Jesus' humanity, but I don't believe He was afraid. He had said He desired ferently to eat the last Passover with them, and also, after the Mount of Transfiguration, had set His face [as a flint] to go to Jerusalem [u]to accomplish His decease[/u]. (Luke's account.) Then in John 10, He says that no-one is taking His life from Him, He is laying it down of Himself. He is actively engaged in doing the laying down of His life.
This is why He could dismiss His spirit, after [b]He[/b] said 'It is finished'. It didn't finish Him. He finished it.
This was the accomplishment of Eve's seed bruising the serpent's head with His heel. He always told Satan to get behind Him. He knew who He was and when facing the cross, despised the shame of it for the joy which was set before Him. In this, He became the Finisher of faith. There is an interesting statement in John 10 which I have never heard expounded, (so here's my two cents), where He alludes to having asked His Father something; John writes:
17 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
18 "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, [u]and I have power to take it again[/u]. [b]This command I have received from My Father[/b]."
Going back to Gesthemane then, I believe what He was not looking forward to, was 'tasting' [u]sin[/u]\death (which is represented in the vinegar He sucked out of the sponge, just before He cried 'It is finished' and gave up His spirit).
He was the Prince of Life, and He had to become sin and taste death. Uughh.
According to an elder brother here, the Hebrew understanding of 'taste' was like their understanding of 'hour'. One hour included the whole day. Likewise, to taste death, is to take the full draught of it.
I don't think the Son was ever rebellious, because He had seen what happened when Lucifer rebelled - how he was cast out of heaven and the presence of God in all His glory - and He deeply desired to redeem mankind from that same fate of eternal separation. When Satan tried to kill Him from time to time on earth, they were 'old' sparring partners, and the order was always that the Son pleased the Father, loved and obeyed Him, and Satan was always subservient, getting behind Jesus when Jesus told him to, and diabolical.
But, Jesus found out the limitations of being a Man and came to appreciate fully, what it was to be tempted to sin. Nevertheless, between the joy that was set before Him when it came to enduring the cross, and glory which He desired to return to of which we read in John 17, He stayed focused until He had fulfilled all that the Father had entrusted Him to be and do.
Perhaps there was one other thing which helped Him live perfectly - the knowledge that His blood would finally cleanse the heavenlies, (Heb 9:23), and that those men who followed in His footsteps (die\dead to sin - Rom 6) could receive the Holy Spirit and be received there one day.
Hebrews is a great book for getting to grips with these things. These (last) verses come to mind.
4 For [i]it is[/i] not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come --
In the volume of the book it is written of Me --
To do Your will, O God.' "
Remember, David was the man after God's own heart - who subdued kingdoms, prophesied, played the harp and sang psalms.
I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly [u]I will praise You[/u].
My praise [i]shall be[/i] of You in the great assembly;
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
saying: "I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You."
Remembering Jesus was the [u]Word[/u] made Flesh, I believe He knew what He was coming to fulfill and that He couldn't fulfill it any other way.
Psalm 22 again
9 But You [i]are[/i] He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust [i]while[/i] on My mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother's womb You [i]have been[/i] My God.
11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble [i]is[/i] near;
For [i]there is[/i] none to help.
| 2007/10/3 13:50|
Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada
Ive always looked at this verse this way;
Jesus thought that his physical body was going to die right there in the garden, because he was at the point of sweating blood and very weak," Father take this cup from me, but not my will, but yours be done."
Then the answer came, An angel came and ministered to him. What do you think?
love in CHRIST tom
| 2007/10/4 14:33||Profile|