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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Hi Jeff,

In complete agreement with you there, 2 Tim 3 in full force. Guess as to the specifics it is difficult to make more of them until they change from speculations to realities. Of course we are to watch and pray and I just chaff a little at a lot of the political posturing of all the pundints and their 'facts'. Do they really have all the information to make such bold claims?

Of course their interests are going to be completely different than ours and it is without a doubt very interesting the things you are bringing forth here.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/6/19 0:34Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Mike,

First, please do not feel as though I am personally seeking to badger you for the thoughts you have expressed. What I am seeking to do is to draw attention to the commonly held beliefs and thoughts of this day.

Yes, I agree with you Mike in terms of conspiracy theories being floated around, most of which are false or tainted by the desires for which men strive to uphold. I am sure that some of the things that I have posted in this thread contain the depravity of man. But look at what surrounds us. We are at war justified by conspiracy plots. (ie Al Qaida and Saddam formed a conspiracy for the 9/11 event.) In terms of the concept, conspiracy, I see that it is a device to take peace away from men.

"Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to [b]take peace from the earth[/b]
and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword." Revelation 6:4 I believe we are seeing the fruits of this work in progress.

As I develop this thread, I too am learning to express and see things which many times are based on the world's viewpoints. I am learning to go to Scripture as a means for discerning the times in which we live. So for me this is an exercise or work in progress and I hope those who read this will ask the hard questions, the confrontational questions.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/6/19 10:18Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Part two of events that took place in Chile:

The Bakersfield Californian, Sunday May 30, 2004

[b]Chile coup pleased Kissinger, Nixon[/b]

Newly released tapes raise questions about what role U.S. may have played, by Neil Lewis NY Times News Service

Five days after a bloody coup on Sept. 11, 1973, that toppled Salvador Allende, the Marxist leader of Chile, Henry Kissinger chatted on the phone with President Richard Nixon about the event, which clearly had delighted both men.

After telling the president that he might go to the season opener for the Washington Redskins, Kissinger exulted in the toppling of a pro-communist government and complained about how much the news media was lementing the event. The press's attitude, he said, was steeped in "unbelievable filthy hypocrisy."

The conversation is part of a 20,000 page cache of transcripts of Kissinger's telephone conversations while he served as national security adviser and secretary of state that was released this week by the National Archives...

...The conversation with Nixon about the coup in Chile will probably add to the debate about Washington's role in that event. Kissinger has long maintained, both in congressional testimony and his memoirs, that the United States had no direct role in the coup but only sought to protect private enterprise in the country.

In 1973 conversation, Kissinger tells the president that "of course the newspapers are bleeding because a pro-communist government has been overthrown."

Nixon responds; "Isn't that something." To which Kissinger says that he and the president would have been hailed as heroes during "the Eisenhower period" of the mid-1950's. He complains that instead they are criticized for tolerating the aparthied regime in South Africa.

Nixon then says; [b]"Well our hand doesn't show on this one, though."[/b] Kissinger replies; "We didn't do it. I [b]I mean we helped them."[/b] The transcript then says, with a long dash that seems to indicate that a word or words were deleted, [b]"--created the conditions as great as possible."[/b]

Kissinger tells Nixon that he is not bothered by the criticism but is merely reporting it. "You are reporting it because it is just typical of the crap we are up against," the president replies..."



Please notice that a democratically elected goverment by that nations people was overthrown. Please notice the form of government that followed. Also please notice that this coup began on [b]September 11, 1973.[/b]

If one looks to the historical outcomes of many of the regime changes that have taken place, democracies have been replaced with military dictatorships. What do men really strive for?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/6/19 10:51Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Brother Jeff,

And I neither! I am of the opinion that I don't have all that much of one except that the vast majority of the news media can't be trusted, certainly on a broader scale man can't be trusted at all...

And even something like:

Quote:
(ie Al Qaida and Saddam formed a conspiracy for the 9/11 event.)

Think the jury is still out even right now and it may be many many years if ever that the truth be told. More so than just Saddam, but Iraq. I sincerely believe, hope and pray that our Governments keeps secret that which is nobody's business, (they better if we are to be a secure country) despite the so called 'rights' of journalists and others that have an agenda, an axe to grind a party to support, etc. etc.

Recently read a scathing rebuke of the media in their handling of the prison abuse scandal which of course is an atrocity, but it may be even more so now because of their handling of it. We are in a time of war in more than one fashion and the media still insists on this bent for disclosure no matter how much fuel gets thrown on the flames or despite the fact that they by doing so are actually causing more deaths, more hostility's, more anger, hatred etc. And they could care less if they do. By the way, the letter was from Pat Boone.

But as far as we are concerned brother, not in the least, we may be doing the same thing in different ways perhaps?;
Quote:
What I am seeking to do is to draw attention to the commonly held beliefs and thoughts of this day.



What I think is of no certain consequence, it is rare that I am sure of much of what I think :-)

Quote:
As I develop this thread, I too am learning to express and see things which many times are based on the world's viewpoints. I am learning to go to Scripture as a means for discerning the times in which we live. So for me this is an exercise or work in progress and I hope those who read this will ask the hard questions, the confrontational questions.



And brother I didn't see it as otherwise, could see where you were going and these just were the thoughts that came to mind. It's a great thread, it can give us all pause to see things in different light.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/6/19 12:32Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Just some thoughts to ponder concerning this illustration of Chile. Whether it is Scripture or the events surrounding me, I am learning to seek to understand the precepts of God. How is God working? What does Scripture say?

The first question, how did the Chilean Christian respond to the fact that a democratically elected government was replaced by a dictator?

The second question, how should an American Christian react to the fact that his or her democratically elected government supported the overthrow of another nations government? Remember Nixon's comment, "Well our hand doesn't show on this one..." How many governments since the end of WW2 have we displaced?

Thirdly, remember that the Soviets are the other half of the equation. For every act that the U.S. initiated, the Soviet were seeking to counteract. How should a Russian Christian live under his or her government?

If you truly ponder these things, is there an answer? Or do you experience frustration and confusion. How would God allow someone like Joseph Stalin or Pinnochet or the Nazi's to rule over the people He loves?

Does it matter to God whether His people live under a dictatorship or a democracy?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/6/20 10:05Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: God cares ...


Jeff you posted:


((( If you truly ponder these things, is there an answer? Or do you experience frustration and confusion. How would God allow someone like Joseph Stalin or Pinnochet or the Nazi's to rule over the people He loves?

Does it matter to God whether His people live under a dictatorship or a democracy? )))


All heavy questions that I've wrestled with God about before, most recently regarding the Christians who died so horribly on 9-11, but have since even put that query to rest ... These type issues will eventually make your head hurt, and far worse can cause a fissure in one's faith that the devil will eventually slither thru ... Yes there is an answer ... God's answer, but sometimes to we mere mortals His answer just doesn't seem good enough ...

Whenever I find myself questioning God to much I mostly remember His answers to Job, but more than that I begin to concentrate on such facts that all that we see is created from nothing, and that each time science thinks they've gotten to the origin of matter (so as to prove God a liar) they find only smaller particles suspended in their own tiny-er universe ... And then I think to myself who am I to question a Creator that awesome ... I do the same thing at night when I look up into the heavens, and then I think Lord whether I agree with your methodology or not, anyone with the kind of power to create the overkill of space (which it often times seems like to me) can run things, do things, and allow things however it pleases You ...

All I know is that God excercises His will in two ways ... Soveriengnly (when He personally alters things to His plan) or permissively (when He allows the devil to do things that fit into His plan) ... So as weird as it may seem Stalin, Pinnochet, Hitler and the Nazi's apparently were allowed because they somehow fit into His plan, and He allowed Satan's introduction and usage of them, just like He's allowing Bin Laden to now be a scourage on the U.S. ... It's funny how we can read the OT and see how God used the kings and kingdoms of satan in His plan, but we kinda miss it in modern times ... I guess that's why when I asked a recent OT class how they saw God working today, no one could relate modern events to God's workings ...

I think God more than cares about the hell we all go thru down here, and particularly that of His own called out people, that's why Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, but we all live in a world, place & time where sin, death and the devil hold sway ... If only Adam had just said NO! ... But he didn't, and so here we are ... Thank God for the saving grace of Jesus Christ that for so many of our brothers and sisters who have lived, and are presently living a hell on earth, that their eventual reward will be paradise ... And as an American Christian I thank Him even more, for we're only just now about to partake of what so many others in the world are already experiencing , the wrath of a devil prowling around as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, for now he knows his time is realllllllllllllly short.

 2004/6/22 17:09Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Good morning brother Rahman:

You wrote: "It's funny how we can read the OT and see how God used the kings and kingdoms of satan in His plan, but we kinda miss it in modern times ... I guess that's why when I asked a recent OT class how they saw God working today, no one could relate modern events to God's workings ..."

I believe many miss the significance of the OT and how it applies to our lives today. I believe if the believer's of today were well rooted in the OT much of the frustrations and worries they experience would disappear.

I was once caught up in trying to figure out why America was not holding to my idealistic thoughts. I was once caught up in following sports teams and always being frustrated with the fact, well maybe they'll do better next year. Those things created, in a sense, a bondage to this world. Yet as I grow in Christ, these things disappear. I listened to a complilation recently which talked about the bondage of those who have not died to self. The end point was, if your dead who cares about the things of this world.

So in this thread, my focus is to relive the frustrations of my past. The issues I raise are the questions of my past. I am trying to share the frustations that stirred deep inside of me. As I shared in the beginning, God took away the bondage by showing me the true extent of the depravity of men. As one's understanding of the depravity of man grows, one also sees the futility for which men strive. In my own life, this precept, total depravity, has set me free from my former frustations. Why should I worry about something which God's says is corrupt? Only God can change these things.

I share in hope that others may find that all the answers are only found in God.

In Christ
Jeff



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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/6/23 12:17Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Jeff, Rahman,

Thank you both. Great stuff here.

Jeff you said:

Quote:
I listened to a complilation recently which talked about the bondage of those who have not died to self. The end point was, if your dead who cares about the things of this world.



Yes indeed, which compilation were you refering to? In a similar vein and pardon the redunancy, but Zac Ponnen touched on this as well, of the effects of 'being slandered, spit on, praised or cursed...what can a dead man do? He just's lie's there'. (loose paraphrase) Be it the things of this world or the effect's of this world:
Quote:
As one's understanding of the depravity of man grows, one also sees the futility for which men strive.


Amen.


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Mike Balog

 2004/6/23 13:41Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Brother Mike

This is the compilation I spoke of:

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=3134

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/6/23 14:19Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:


Greetings all!!


Good evening brother Jeff ... you posted:


((( I believe many miss the significance of the OT and how it applies to our lives today. I believe if the believer's of today were well rooted in the OT much of the frustrations and worries they experience would disappear. )))


A thousand amens! ... I tell saints all the time that the one good thing being raised a Jehovah's Witness did for me was to make me extremely knowledgeable about the OT ... I love the OT so much, and have so many heroes in it that affect my "walking and talking" with God to this very day ... Without understanding the OT a saint can never become fully aware that "God's law makes one appreciate God's grace grace, but true appreciation of God's grace makes one want to keep God's law"


Brother Jeff you posted:


((( So in this thread, my focus is to relive the frustrations of my past. The issues I raise are the questions of my past. I am trying to share the frustations that stirred deep inside of me. As I shared in the beginning, God took away the bondage by showing me the true extent of the depravity of men. As one's understanding of the depravity of man grows, one also sees the futility for which men strive. In my own life, this precept, total depravity, has set me free from my former frustations. Why should I worry about something which God's says is corrupt? Only God can change these things.

I share in hope that others may find that all the answers are only found in God. )))



I agree with you 100%, only God can change these things ... Amen, and bless his holy name that He does it one man (person) at a time, of which you, and I, and so many others on this SI forum are become part of so great a cloud of witnesses who can testify to our Jesus changing us from corruption to incorruption ... Oh bless His holy, and miraculous name! ... Thank you Jesus!

Keep sharing brother Jeff ... keep sharing, as that's what our Master wants us to do ... What's the use of struggling and overcoming, if we don't share/example to others that we're a witness to the "more than conquerors" empowerment of our Lord and Savior
Jesus Christ ...


PS - Bro. Jeff where exactly on SI is the compilation sermon found? ... Thanks!

 2004/6/24 17:52Profile





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