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 Re:

Good Morning Jeannette,

Please don't be offended by what I am about to say, and maybe we can come to an understanding for all here.

When there was a discussion on the Matthew 24 Thread, I posted the Gospel, based on the Covenant Promises. I also declared Matthew 24 was speaking specifically to Jews, as it said..
"Pray your flight does not take place on the Sabbath"....also stating Gentiles were never under Sabbath Law, and to look more fully at the Chapter as a whole.

In Matthew 24, there is a verse......go to the Holy Place.....Did you find it?

Now, What I originally posted was exactly that...WHERE the Holy Place exists....in the Holy of Holies...thought the Blood of Jesus Christ....Using Hebrews as my point of reference. Please go back to my original post on the Matthew 24 thread, and re-read.

Instead of being delighted in the Truth of the Gospel....You came back with a strange reply about being a Calvinist....

I replied back that I was not a Calvinist, but a Born Again Jew.

That Born Again Jews KNOW their Covenant Promises has nothing what so ever to do with Calvinism. I've stated many times on these threads what and why I disagree with Calvinism.

Calvinism believes no one can come to the place of Saving Faith unless they are first regenerated (Saved...Born Again) to do so. There is no scripture to back that up.

I believe in Who so ever Will may come.....a very important difference...and based on that one point alone, all the other points fall off the TULIP.

Now just because Calvinists believe in Eternal Security...doesn't mean they completely understand the Covenants of Promise.....

Salvation if OF the Jews,(Based on the Covenant made with Abraham) ....I will look up this scripture if you would like...Jesus plainly said it in the Gospels.

Also, Galatians states....that the blessings of Abraham will come to the Gentiles. The whole book of Galatians is Grace vs Law. (Not Calvinism vs Armenianism) however many would like to see it that way.

The Blessing or Promise that was to come was the promise of the Holy Spirit..... I will also post these verses as well if you would like....

In stating my belief that we believe in the promises of God let me say this.

When God promised Abraham a son, Abraham believed God, and God accounted it to him as righteousness....This is stated many times in scripture. Abraham did not have to *work for that promise*, but believe that what God said He would do God would bring to pass.

Now, remember, I'm sure Abrahan and Sarah would have always wanted a son, but emember the promise first came from God.....Abrahan didn't just say...I want a son, I'm going to faith it into happening. That is the wrong kind of Faith.
That is faith in faith.

Our faith is in GOD's Word...His Promises.

Now, that promise was specifically to Abraham correct....but look at John 3:16...that promise is to ALL. Praise God!!!

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did



:-D

 2007/10/18 8:49









 Re:

[Katy wrote]

Quote:
Good Morning Jeannette,

Please don't be offended by what I am about to say..."

I'm not offended, I was just bewildered because I don't understand what you are trying to say a lot of the time! I [i]thought[/i] you said you weren't a Calvinist, but then you said things that seemed as if maybe you were after all.

I’m sure that others besides Calvinists believe in eternal security but couldn’t understand what [i]you[/i] were saying you believe.

[EDIT] added bit: **Actually I realise that i never really thought about it one way or the other - the only people I've come across before who believe in eternal security have been Calvinists. See longer post to follow**[EDIT]

Your last post does begin to make more sense – at last!

Maybe I’m just thick :oops: :-?

Love in Him

Jeannette

 2007/10/18 14:44









 Re:

Katy wrote

Quote:
In Matthew 24, there is a verse......go to the Holy Place.....Did you find it?

Matthew 24:15 says:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place…

not “go to the holy place”

Quote:
Now, What I originally posted was exactly that...WHERE the Holy Place exists....in the Holy of Holies...thought the Blood of Jesus Christ....Using Hebrews as my point of reference.

Amen!

Quote:
Instead of being delighted in the Truth of the Gospel....You came back with a strange reply about being a Calvinist....

That was the impression I got from the things you were saying.

Quote:
I replied back that I was not a Calvinist, but a Born Again Jew.
That Born Again Jews KNOW their Covenant Promises has nothing what so ever to do with Calvinism. I've stated many times on these threads what and why I disagree with Calvinism.

That’s what confused me. You spoke about eternal security, and I thought [u]only[/u] Calvinists believe that.

[u]It never occurred to me until now that you believe in eternal security without being a Calvinist![/u]

So you seemed to be contradicting yourself! I now realise that you weren't, but it wasn't at all clear from your posts.

I’m not a Calvinist either, but the Lord said to me years ago, when I was doubting my salvation, “I will never leave you nor forsake you”. So I suppose I believe in my own eternal security because He said so :-)

But I never realised that anyone else believed in their eternal security unless they were Calvinists, or the Lord had spoken specifically to them as He did to me!

Quote:
Calvinism believes no one can come to the place of Saving Faith unless they are first regenerated (Saved...Born Again) to do so. There is no scripture to back that up.

I believe in Who so ever Will may come.....a very important difference...and based on that one point alone, all the other points fall off the TULIP.

You mean the other [i]petals[/i] fall off :lol:

Quote:
Now just because Calvinists believe in Eternal Security...doesn't mean they completely understand the Covenants of Promise.....

True!

Quote:
Salvation is OF the Jews,(Based on the Covenant made with Abraham) ....I will look up this scripture if you would like...Jesus plainly said it in the Gospels.

Amen! I know it!

Quote:
Also, Galatians states....that the blessings of Abraham will come to the Gentiles. The whole book of Galatians is Grace vs Law. (Not Calvinism vs Armenianism) however many would like to see it that way

The Blessing or Promise that was to come was the promise of the Holy Spirit..... I will also post these verses as well if you would like....

I think everyone posting on this thread knows and loves those scriptures, but you can post them if you like.

Quote:
In stating my belief that we believe in the promises of God let me say this.

When God promised Abraham a son, Abraham believed God, and God accounted it to him as righteousness....This is stated many times in scripture. Abraham did not have to *work for that promise*, but believe that what God said He would do God would bring to pass.

Now, remember, I'm sure Abrahan and Sarah would have always wanted a son, but emember the promise first came from God.....Abrahan didn't just say...I want a son, I'm going to faith it into happening. That is the wrong kind of Faith.
That is faith in faith.

Our faith is in GOD's Word...His Promises.

Now, that promise was specifically to Abraham correct....but look at John 3:16...that promise is to ALL. Praise God!!!

Praise Him indeed! The only problem has been that you seemed to be trying to [i][u]teach[/u][/i] us things we already know and believe, as if we [i][u]didn’t[/u][/i] know or didn’t believe them.

But I have learned something new from this discussion – that it’s possible to believe in eternal security (apart from a personal experience such as I had) without falling headfirst into the dreaded TULIP :lol:

Sorry to be so slow to realise that – it would have saved a lot of confusion all around!

Love in Him

Jeannette

 2007/10/18 15:52









 Re:

Quote:
The only problem has been that you seemed to be trying to teach us things we already know and believe, as if we didn’t know or didn’t believe them.




Quote:
But I have learned something new from this discussion – that it’s possible to believe in eternal security (apart from a personal experience such as I had) without falling headfirst into the dreaded TULIP



Jeannette, there are Many Bible believing Christians who have a most personal relationship with the Lord who believe in Eternal Security and are not Calvinists. Those promises are based solely in the Covenants of promise, and tht took place long before Calvin came on the scene....and many found that security long before the 1500's.

I am delighted that you learned something here.


Quote:
It never occurred to me until now that you believe in eternal security without being a Calvinist!




I did state this on the Matthew 24 Watch.

Yes, Jesus died for my bad spelling too...He loves me anyway...and so much so, never would use to embarass, as we all have shortcomings and disabilities.

Love covers a multitude of Sins....

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

 2007/10/18 16:54









 Re:

Bless you, Katy!

The spelling isn't a problem, only I never understood before what you were talking about re this subject. And some of the posts were so long and involved that I more or less gave up on the Matthew 24 thread.

You said:

Quote:
there are Many Bible believing Christians who have a most personal relationship with the Lord who believe in Eternal Security and are not Calvinists. Those promises are based solely in the Covenants of promise, and tht took place long before Calvin came on the scene....and many found that security long before the 1500's.

I would be interested in what you understand as the Covenants of Promise, but that would be a subject for a different thread.

I admit that I never linked Covenant with eternal security, because most Bible covenants are conditional, (except for one or two, such as with Noah, that the earth would never again be destroyed with a flood...) So that if either side broke the covenant then it becomes void, so fails to give such security.

The subject of covenant is huge, and it would be good to hear different perspectives and understandings on it.

Care to start a thread on it?

Maybe we'd better check first to what extent it's already been covered.

I do know of the Jewish concept of the Noahide covenant that is for all people, as opposed to the covenant of circumcision, which is to the Jewish people (or prostelytes) only.

And of course we are now in the New Covenant, and the fulfillment of the Promise to Abraham that in his Seed all nations would be blessed...

*************************************************

Started me thinking how I would approach the topic...

Beer-sheba comes to mind - the well of the Oath. Don't know why, because it doesn't seem to be beginning at the beginning...

Mmmmm

Love in Him

Jeannette

 2007/10/18 17:26









 Re:

Quote:
I admit that I never linked Covenant with eternal security, because most Bible covenants are conditional, (except for one or two, such as with Noah, that the earth would never again be destroyed with a flood...) So that if either side broke the covenant then it becomes void, so fails to give such security.



I don’t want to start a thread on the Covenants of Promise, but will post here to show you where eternal security IS in the Covenants of Promise.

(I will be away for a while visiting my son ….so here goes this response now) .

Jeannette, Hebrews is a great place to start with the New Covenant and Everlasting Covenant promises.

Yes, there are many Covenants and many different teachings on Covenants. And you are correct that some teach these as conditional.

However, the New Covenant, and Everlasting Covenant are not a conditional covenant based, "if" in the way that the Law of Moses was based.....because, Jesus fulfilled the Law, and now those "In Christ", have that Law written in their heart.

Psalms says, the secrets of the Lord are with those who fear Him, and He will Show them His Covenant.

As we Grow in the Grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ...He does just that!

The New Covenant is based on [i][b]Better Promises[/b][/i]. That is the [i][b]key[/b][/i] word in Hebrews[i][b]Better Promises[/b][/i]. Better than what? Better than anything you can possibly imagine.


Ephesians 2:11-13
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


So many overlook this verse in Hebrews 6.….that chapter that many say you can lose your salvation????

But if read through,


Hebrews
6:9
9But, beloved, we are persuaded [i][b]Better [/b][/i]things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.


Hebrews 6:16-18
16For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec


The Covenants of Promise were sealed in the Blood of Jesus Christ. (From [i][b]before[/b][/i] the Foundation of the World) a Covenant between Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Here we have the understanding of the Word SURITY. Also can look it up...Andrew Murray has an excellent article on the [i][b]Surity[/b][/i]of the Covenant.


Genesis 43:9
I myself will be surety for him; from my hand you shall require him. If I do not bring him back to you and set him before you, then let me bear the blame forever.

Genesis 44:32
For your servant became surety for the lad to my father, saying, ‘If I do not bring him back to you, then I shall bear the blame before my father forever.’


Hebrews 7:21-23
21(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22By so much was Jesus made a [i][b]Surity [/b][/i]of a better Testament/Covenant.

Now look at the verses that say …“within the veil” and “through the veil“.

When we enter within the veil or through the veil we enter into the Holy of Holies, when we identify with Jesus in death and resurrection life. The New and [i][b]Living[/b][/i] way is…Romans 6-8.

Added for content:
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.


And Galatians 2:20 & 21.….I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
( Galatians 2:20&21) This is Grace….the [i][b]Spirit[/b][/i] of Grace…of which Hebrews 10 speaks of….

Hebrews 10: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Again, many take this to be a warning one can lose their salvation….but that is not what the Chapter is about….No more sacrifice for sin was the warning to Jews who were sitting on the fence undecided about keeping Law…the old way of sacrifice through animal sacrifice…or completely putting their faith in Jesus Christ *****who once and for all ***** became that final sacrifice. If you read all of Hebrews 10 completely through…this is the main subject matter. AND we know in Thessalonians that God Vengeance is coming to those who have rejected the Gospel.

The Blood of the Covenant wherewith he was sanctified….WOW! Yes even our sanctification is covered here.

What does Peter say:
1 Peter 1:2
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied

Hebrews 6:16-18
16For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.


Hebrews 10:19-21
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21And having an high priest over the house of God;



Jeannette, For me these great and Precious promises through the Blood of Jesus Christ are YES and AMEN. I will post here, and will say no more then this. For me it is most sacred, and not to be argued, or picked apart. We stand on the Promises of God, believing what He said He will do , He will do.

Hebrews 13:
20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Because this Glory belongs to Jesus Christ all I can say is YES and AMEN because it‘s TRUE!!!! Our Eternal Security is in Jesus Christ and His finished work upon the Cross.

This is what John 3:16 [i][b]is all about[/b][/i]!!!!

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

God Bless

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did


:-) [i][b]Better[/b][/i]

 2007/10/18 19:12





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