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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Quoting scripture?

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 Re:

Poet said:

Quote:
Also personally if someone is writing a book, and they dont give scripture and source material to promote their findings, I throw it away because If I cant confirm what they teach, then how do I know im drinking cool-aid or not.

I originally said "amen" to this, but realised (thanks to others' comments) what is wrong with that statement.

If you know Scripture you will know if it's true teaching or not. Whether the writer gives direct quotes or not won't make any difference. The only question I have to ask is, [color=CC0000]"Does what this writer or speaker says line up with what the Bible says?"[/color]

Of course, quotes are important, but sometimes the Bible references are best as confirmatory footnotes, or an appendix, instead of in the body of the writing. It all depends on the purpose, and who the book or talk is aimed at.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/9/30 16:27









 Re:

Katy said:

Quote:
I have always found those things that *seem like* but just seem to miss the mark, come from those who:

1. Deny the Deity of Jesus Christ
2. Deny imputed righteousness
3. Deny this amazing Grace(our sanctification by faith) we have In Christ Jesus
4. Deny the POWER of the Cross
5. Deny our identification with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life. (Romans 6-8)
6. Do not see themselves raised up with Jesus Christ as we speak, and seated with Him in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.
7. Do not have their roots of their Salvation firmly established from OT Covenant’s", to the New Covenant, that Hebrews so wonderfully lays out for all believers.....A BETTER Covenant.

Wow! this is quite a list. Each point would need a whole new thread to itself to do it justice!

I'm glad you put in number 3, [i]Sanctification[/i] by faith. Justification (= number 1, Imputed righterousness) is wonderful but its not enough by itself!

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/9/30 16:32









 Re:

Katy said:

Quote:
I do agree, there are some very good counterfeits out there, who use and quote scripture. Just because someone sprinkles a little blood on it, does not mean it has been sanctified by God. Many will know ALL the terminology Christians use as well. It's when NEW terminology enters the conversation.....never used in scripture, that Christians run after too, is most disturbing.

Not sure re "new terminology". I agree that usually this is a sign of the introduction of error, but not necessarily. It's not so much the words we use but what we [i][u]mean[/u][/i] by them that matters. A Hindu or a Muslim won't mean what we mean by "God", or "prayer" for example. And a Christian may use terminology that sounds wrong to mean something that is actually OK.

The little I've read on the "inner light" discussion is relevant here. Someone on that thread said (if I remember right) that George Fox probably meant what the Bible means re the indwelling Holy Spirit, but those who came after began to use the term "inner light" in a more mystical or occult way.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/9/30 16:41









 Re:

Quote:

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:
Quote:

poet wrote:
The pharisees of Jesus time thought they had it all figured out and missed the spirit of scripture, and doctrine.
...
Also personally if someone is writing a book, and they dont give scripture and source material to promote their findings, I throw it away because If I cant confirm what they teach, then how do I know im drinking cool-aid or not.



At the risk of opening myself to being stoned, I'd like to challenge this last statement.

It is interesting to note that the Pharisees commonly quoted Scripture, and yet the sentiments behind what they said were unscriptural because they neglected the "weightier matters of the law" (Matt 23:23). [b]Citing Scripture references doesn't guarantee Scriptural accuracy, just as it is not essential that actual Scripture be quoted in order for a sermon to be Scriptural[/b].

Consider Paul on Mars Hill. I don't believe that he even quoted Scripture once, and yet his sermon hit the nail on the head. Even if we read his epistles, we can see that he often quoted Scripture as if they were his words, not citing a reference. Often even if he did quote a source, he'd only quote the author (eg, Romans 10, where he refers to what Moses wrote).

Norman Grubb was one such example, who would be constantly quoting and paraphrasing Scripture, without even saying that it was Scripture. Art Katz was another. I can remember listening to something he said once, thinking "That's an interesting theory. Not sure if I agree", only to be reading a verse in Leviticus a few days later, to find out that he was actually quoting Scripture.

We are called to be like the Bereans, who "searched the Scriptures to see" if what Paul said was true. [b]Give me one man who'll share the heart of God, without opening His Bible to do so, over 100 who compulsively rattle off a heap of verses to prove a point, any day[/b].

Great post brother. I especially like the emphasised parts.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/9/30 16:46









 Re:

Quote:

Intens4Him wrote:
Quote:
LittleGift wrote:

...

The Word of God is [u]far more[/u] than words on a page, however correct, true and inspired by the Holy Spirit.

....

Any comments?

Jeannette



Jeannette,

John 1.1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1.2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1.3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1.4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1.5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

It doesn't say anything about the Word of God being the written page. Does that mean that I do not read the Bible? Of course not but I definitely try not to argue or beat anyone up over it.

You also wrote...

Quote:
LittleGift wrote:
If we are debating an issue, or seeking proof for or against a particular teaching, then appeals to the Word are right and proper.

Yet, while that is good, I wonder if it can sometimes be taken too far? We sometimes seem so concerned about being "Bereans" that we miss the heart of the matter, and get bogged down in endless wranglings over finer points of doctrine. Or using the Word to fight each other!



i agree with your statement that we miss the heart of the matter most times when we are heatedly debating over the written Word. This is just my humble opinion but I believe that there are too many pharisee's here and in churches who can and sometimes do kill with the letter of the word and I don't think that is what God intended when he let man create the printing press!

Anyway, Zac Poonen taught a sermon called [url=http://www.cfcindia.com/web/mainpages/video_message.php?issue=105&date=07_09&title=The+Spirit+And+The+Cross]The Spirit and the Cross[/url], I posted it on another thread but I think it is relevant here too. Here is just an excerpt of it...

[11.00 minutes into it approx and pardon any typing mistakes!] All the great Christians you read about in the Bible, never had a Bible themselves. Abraham didn't have a Bible, Job didn't have a Bible. Enoch who walked with God 300 years didn't have Bible. Even the New Testament Christians, most of them were running around from cave to cave, they didn't have a Bible. The first printed Bibles came around 1500 AD, just about 500 years ago. So how did people lives so many years ago without Bibles? How did God expect Christians to live for 1,500 years without the Bible? They couldn't have a quiet time with the Bible every morning; do you know what was most important for those Christians? The Holy Spirit. The way of the Cross. That's what makes a person spiritual. The reason I say that is because we live in a day when knowledge and information has been given great importance and I found in our churches also there's so much of Bible knowledge and information, understanding of doctrine and truth and all that [u]but not a sufficient dependence on the power of the Holy Spirit and not a sufficient understanding on the way of the Cross. And that's the reason why we don't have more spiritual people in our midst.[/u] [13.25]
(Emphasis mine.)

If we would just be about the Father's business we wouldn't have all this disagreement. Jesus's brother said,
Quote:
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
James 1:27


If we would just pay more attention to this one verse, we just might have heaven on earth. At least the widows and orphans would think so!

God bless you Jeanette in your walk with Him!

Thanks Lisa, nothing to add here but you make some great comments.

Of course the last quote doesn't give us an excuse for neglecting the written Word.

Just in case someone thinks that's what's being said ;-)

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/9/30 16:50









 Re:

Katy said:

Quote:
I remember Paul saying the word was WROUGHT in Him, which means beating as with a hammer. Many have it hammered in their heads but never in their hearts. God does the hammering.

Main Entry: 1wrought
Pronunciation: 'ro t
past and past participle of WORK
beaten into shape by tools : HAMMERED -- used of metals

Thanks, I really like this part of your post especially.

Apparently the metal isn't only hammered but plunged again and again into fire and into water by turns, until it becomes very strong, yet pliable enough to be shaped and used without shattering .

In Jeremiah it says that God's Word is like a hammer and like fire.

If I was being picky I could say (after looking it up) that none of the NT Greek words used for "wrought" actually MEAN hammered. But it expresses the sense of the Lord's working in our lives all the same.

[b]In fact that's a very good example of what we've been talking about on this thread, not accurately sticking with the [i][u]letter[/u][/i] of Scripture but still keeping to the [i][u]Spirit[/u][/i] of it[/b].

love in HIm

Jeannette

 2007/9/30 17:07









 Re:

Hi again Jeannette,

Exodus 25:31
And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same.

I should have put this scriptue to cross reference, but the word, "beaten" is miqshah in Hebrew meaning:
1.molded by hammering,
2.beaten out,
3.upright.

There are so many wonderful gems of truth in the study of the Tabernacle, types and shadows referring to Jesus Christ, the Church, Mercy seat, etc, that which was made with hands, made exactly after a pattern God gave Moses, of the Heavenly True Picture, (although not fully revealed in the OT, but fully revealed in the New Testament.

Jesus will present the Church to Himself without spot or Wrinkle, so in the OT, Pure Gold was of beaten work. (Job said I shall come forth as Gold). We are molded into the image of Jesus Christ...Christ formed in you as Paul told the Galatians. They went back to the law, and Paul said "Have ye SUFFERED so much in vain", Ye have fallen from Grace. So many think GRACE is so easy, when actually it is probably more difficult then anything. We LEARN obedience throught the things we suffer, and Jesus was our example of suffering so that He could become a faithful High Priest to Us, His Church. To KNOW Him and the Fellowship of His sufferings is the heart of the Christian life.

So I understand what you mean that people can say something we may not think is in scripture, when it actually is....

I don't like giving any principles unless it is in scripture, so thank you for pointing that out to show where this truth is rooted.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did



:-)

 2007/9/30 19:55









 Re:

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Quote:


1. Deny the Deity of Jesus Christ
2. Deny imputed righteousness
3. Deny this amazing Grace(our sanctification by faith) we have In Christ Jesus
4. Deny the POWER of the Cross
5. Deny our identification with Jesus Christ in death and resurrection life. (Romans 6-8)
6. Do not see themselves raised up with Jesus Christ as we speak, and seated with Him in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.
7. Do not have their roots of their Salvation firmly established from OT Covenant’s", to the New Covenant, that Hebrews so wonderfully lays out for all believers.....A BETTER Covenant.




I'm glad you put in number 3, Sanctification by faith. Justification (= number 1, Imputed righterousness) is wonderful but its not enough by itself!




Yes and we must never forget that the whole list above is through the **Blood** of the everlasting Covenant, that is why there is teh warning in Hebrews 10 to Jews still wanting to keep Law, that there is no more sacrifice for sin ( Jesus shed blood, paid it all).

And how we are not to count the Blood of the Covenant a common thing or unholy thing, or trample underfoot the Son of God, or insult the Spirit of Grace, for it will be these that the wrath of God is coming.

Love in Christ
Katy-Did

:-)

 2007/9/30 20:08
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Katy did, my point about doctrine was ......when looking through THEIR eyes things look different.

I dont think doctrinal teaching heals the sick or raises the dead.
I also dont think i must be 100% doctrinally correct to minister to the sick.
Jesus was doctrinally incorrect to the religious people.
Doctrine can hinder.
The people who recieve a miraacle ....I have never once heard of one of these people wondering about doctrine.
When John quesstionedd Jesus authenticity Jessus said"go and tell john the blind see the lame walk......etc.
HE DIDNT TRY TO PROVE A POSITION DOCTRINALLY.
Do you really think poor people need food and doctrine?
This doctrine is different than Jesus'
Jesus went about healing.He taught and did a lot of things but mainly healing.
I think doctrine is important and I love doctrine
But food and doctrine for the poor? Not me ......bring me the sick.....they need help. Do we feed the poor? yes. Do we preach to the poor? yes. How do the poor know Jesus is alive?
The blind see the dead are raised leapers are cleansed ......etc
David

 2007/9/30 21:20Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Katy did,

did you see what philologos said in the inner light thread.
........."God is bigger than his book".
I agree



David

 2007/9/30 21:32Profile





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