Dear Dorcas, Thank you again for your post.
I have a few question for you.
(Old Covenant and New covenant.)
We know that there was an Old and that there is a new covenant, right?
My question to you is.
Does this New Covenant, substitute and nullifies all covenants given by God?
If your answer is No, then Please could you point out what is this Old covenant that the new substitute and give me the texts supporting your answer.
If your answer is yes. Then
We know God had a covenant with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, Israel(nation) to name a few.
In Fact with Israel, He had more than One covenant.
We also know that The sabbath was a covenant on its own.
Exodus 31:16 'Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
My question to you is. This Old covenant that no longer has any value to us. Does the covenant of the Sabbath is included in this Old covenant?
does the new covenant, nullifies what God established as Perpetual?
Now, you might say that the Covenant of the Sabbath was for the children of Israel, and I agree with you, but there is one thing, So is the new covenant.
Jeremiah 31:31-33 " Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 32 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
And here is Paul saying the same thing.
Hebrews 8:8-10 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah -- 9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Now, I have not found in my bible where it says that God made a covenant for us Gentiles. But He gave a new covenant to the House of Israel and the House of Judah.
The other question I have for you is this.
Both in Jeremiah and in Hebrews, God says that He is going to put His laws in our hearts.
What are these laws?
I know that The Ten commandments are God's laws,
Jesus talks about the Ten Commandments.
Luke 18:19-22 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 20 "You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' " 21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth." 22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
I believe that the law God is talking about is the Ten commandments.
Now, Paul says that through my faith in Christ, I am a partaker of the promises.
So this is what I believe,
When I accepted Christ in my life as my only saviour and after being baptized, I was born again. Not of the Flesh but of the Spirit.
The new Covenant by no means nullifies the Ten Commandments. And by no means nullify the Sabbath for the SAbbath is a covenant on its own and it is a perpetual covenant.
Now, My understanding of the old and new covenant is this.
Let's see what the new covenant is all about.
Matthew 26:26-28 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mark 14:22-24 2 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 23 Then He took the cup, and when He had given thanks He gave it to them, and they all drank from it. 24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.
Luke 22:19-20 And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.
we have three descriptions of the New Covenant.
It has nothing to do with the Moral Law(Ten Commandments).
Here Pauls talks about the Old and new covenant.
Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah --
I ask you, why the first covenant was not considered faultless?
For this reason.
Hebrews 7:22-28 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. 23 Also there were many priests, because they were prevented by death from continuing. 24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected forever.
Hebrews 9:1-28 hen indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the sanctuary; 3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, 4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail. 6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people's sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience -- 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you." 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. 23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another -- 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Brother one thing I believe.
At the day of judgement we will be judged in accordance with God's Law. If the Ten commandments were done away, based on what is God going to declare some saved and other lost?
The other question is,
If the Ten commandments are no longer valid, what is the ark of the covenant doing in the heavenly temple?
I am pretty sure that you know what is inside of the ark of the covenant.
Revelation 11:19 Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail.
This is my comments on Old and new covenants.
I will try to comment on your last message later today.
| 2007/10/18 8:06|
| Re: The New Day of Rest|
To answer briefly your end-of-post question about the Ten Commandments, I have never suggested that they were done away.
The New Covenant does not make that claim, nor do I on its behalf.
In fact, the New Covenant challenges believers to keep the sabbath to a new and [i][b]higher[/i][/b] standard.
In this thread, you are being challenged on your way of keeping the sabbath, because it is the [i][b]Old Covenant[/i][/b] sabbath you espouse, adjusted to acknowledge Christ in a measure, but not in fulness. I cannot judge how far from fulness.
You mention the day of judgement, and how we will be judged for our law-keeping. Yes. Both Jesus and Paul address this in their declamations, pointing us to the perfection which is in Christ, and the keeping of the New Covenant with Him.
You see, unless a believer has [u]died[/u] to sin (in Him) he cannot be credited with Christ's righteousness, nor can His righteousness be imparted to him by grace through faith. Nor can he be credited, therefore with having kept the [u]new sabbath of rest in Christ[/u], to that (New Covenant) standard which Christ [i]freely[/i] imparts.
Those keeping the sabbath to a variation of the Old Covenant remain dead in sin by default of not being [u]New Covenant[/u] keepers. They will be judged on that basis.
I do not say this lightly, and it sounds harsh; but dying to sin [i]is[/i] harsh and yet it is the door to rest in Christ, our Lord of the Sabbath.
| 2007/10/18 9:38|
""Brother one thing I believe.
At the day of judgement we will be judged in accordance with God's Law. If the Ten commandments were done away, based on what is God going to declare some saved and other lost?""
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
This is the mystery and "my Gospel".
Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
If we are to be judged by this mystery, how will that be?
Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Dead to sin as Dorcas has presented:
It is dead so mortify it. Colossians 3:5-11 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
If Christ is all and in all that believe, does that not make Him or Sabbath, "Lord of the Sabbath".
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
There is a new Sabbath, it is in Him. What is old? The Law. What is new? Grace and peace and rest in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Jhn 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace (rest)I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Why did He go away?
John 14:28-31 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
That He might come again in the believer and give him Rest.
"let us go hence"? To where? Jesus and the apostles now rose from the paschal supper and went to the Mount of Olives, and that the remainder of the discourse in chapters 15-16, together with the prayer in chapter 17, was delivered while on the way to the garden of Gethsemane;
Prayer of 17: John 17:1-26 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
Do we know Him? Do we know Him? Is He in us? What is the Sabbath for? To declare God's Name and enter His Peace. That is Jesus Christ Himself a complete Person in us. Making us a new creation race of People not old being made better, but a complete new creation, In Christ, making Him our daily Sabbath.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2007/10/18 14:19||Profile|