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Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

[u][b]John 5:16-18[/b][/u]

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Jesus worked on the Sabbath. Jesus worked everyday. Did He break the law?

We are called to follow in Jesus' footsteps. This means "going where He goes, saying what He says, praying what He prays.


In love,

Miccah


_________________
Christiaan

 2007/10/10 19:56Profile









 Re:

Dear brother,

You are talking about Abraham covenant, But I actually had asked you to explain to me the new covenant. Wasn't it given to Israel and the house of Judah?

People talk about the Old Covenant, and the New covenant. But to me they were both to the house of Israel.

You said the Gentiles are partakers of Abraham covenant. could you point out to me this old covenant and new covenant. That states the fact the gentiles are part of it?

You said that Gentiles and Jew are partakers of Abraham covenant by faith. But you did not explain the old and the new.

Your thoughts will be very much apreciated.

God bless


 2007/10/10 20:15









 Re:

Dear brother,

quote: Jesus worked on the Sabbath. Jesus worked everyday. Did He break the law?""

When you say that Jesus worked everyday. was it labour work? or was his work to do good to others?

My other question to you is, When God rested on the seventh day of creation. Did the Sun rise or it didn't for God was resting? Did the moon shine in the evening? Did the whole creation that he had just finished creating, stand still, while God was resting?

Please Brother do not compare the work that God does, and the work the Jesus came to do here for us, to the same works that he wants us to rest from.

Please read the fouth Commandment and you will see that God is especifically talking about labour, the same labour he told Adam would have to do in order to get His provisions.

But again I will repeat it.

If there is lawful things to do in the Sabbath, there has to be unlawful things, and when I say unlawful things, I mean things that are not forbiden in the other six days.

God Bless.

 2007/10/10 20:24
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

If one even tries to keep the law that would be legalism.
[b]Romans 10:4[/b] [color=990000]For Christ is the fulfillment of the law for righteousness sake to everyone that believes.[/color]
[b]Romans 8:4[/b] [color=990000]That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/color]

All one must do is to love God and he will keep His commandments.

 2007/10/10 20:44Profile
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1804
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

Is rest something of a misnoma in church as church is the most busy day of the week.
Coming two and fro from church. Having to do the dinner, Sunday Service, Evening Service.
What I think that I miss is people thinking about the Lord the whole day and everyday.


_________________
Dominic Shiells

 2007/10/10 21:18Profile
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:

Quote:
When you say that Jesus worked everyday. was it labour work? or was his work to do good to others?

Please Brother do not compare the work that God does, and the work the Jesus came to do here for us, to the same works that he wants us to rest from.



Respectfully. Do you believe in the Trinity? If so, you are teaching directly against what Jesus is saying NOT to do. Let me ad the rest of these verses for a clearer understanding. PLEASE pay careful attention to verse 23.

[u][b]John 5:19-23[/b][/u]

19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 [b]that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.[/b]


Quote:
My other question to you is, When God rested on the seventh day of creation. Did the Sun rise or it didn't for God was resting? Did the moon shine in the evening? Did the whole creation that he had just finished creating, stand still, while God was resting?



I genuinely believe that you feel those of us who do not believe in your idea of the Sabbath are in sin are subject to damnation. I thank you for your concern. If this is what the Lord has told you to do and you have a heavy conviction about it, follow the Sabbath. I believe that the Lord may be telling you to keep the Sabbath completely “workless” in your life. He hasn’t in mine. He has told me that everyday needs to be a Sabbath day to Him, not just one. Everyday we are to live our lives in fear and awe of Him. To say that only one day is the holy day is to say that the other 6 are not, when everyday to the Lord is holy. As you said, did all of creation stand still when God rests? Read again John 5:17.

Quote:
Please read the fouth Commandment and you will see that God is especifically talking about labour, the same labour he told Adam would have to do in order to get His provisions.



I have read the forth Commandment, but the question is, have you read read Jesus' Commandments. Here it is (in scripture).

[u][b]Matthew 22:34-40[/b][/u]

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ [u][b]40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”[/b][/u]

I will state the same thing that I have stated in other threads. That is: When a man tells me to STOP listening to what Jesus says and start listening to what “that man” thinks, I will “end the conversation”.

With love,

Miccah


_________________
Christiaan

 2007/10/10 23:39Profile









 Re: A New Day of Rest



Dear jayme,

I wish to respond to just one statement from the early part of your last long post on p2, where you said:

Quote:
Let's put this into the context of Jew and Gentile. Paul was a Jew, and by being a Jew, He would have to keep the sabbath.

First I would like to mention that in Hebrew thought, an hour refers to the whole day and a taste refers to the whole drink. Likewise a 'day' can mean the whole [i]age[/i], for instance, the 'day of salvation' (2 Cor 6:2).


Regarding Jew and Gentile, makrothumia has explained much which is relevant and complete, so I want to draw to your attention these verses which clearly tell us that Paul had consciously stopped keeping the law, exchanging the circumcision of his heart, for any former meaning that his outward circumcision had had.

The Old and New Covenant do not co-exist. The New Covenant is a total replacement for the Old, even though some people still keep the Old by tradition, they are, under the terms of the New Covenant, freed to walk away from the Old forever, and into the New, without hesitation or pausing for breath, except to thank God for a finalisation of His plan of salvation for man, in Christ, brought to us by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said this, also:
John 4
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 [u]But the hour cometh, and now [b]is[/b][/u], when the [u]true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth[/u]: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God [i]is[/i] a Spirit: and they that worship him [u]must[/u] worship [i]him[/i] in spirit and in truth.


Here are some of Paul's statements, which I hope you will research:

Galatians 2:14
But when I saw that [u]they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel[/u], I said unto Peter before [i]them[/i] all, If thou, [b]being a Jew[/b], [u]livest after the manner of Gentiles[/u], and [u]not as do the Jews[/u], why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the [unbelieving-in-Christ] Jews?


1 Corinthians 9:20
And unto the Jews I be[u]came[/u] as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

(Note his use of the past tense, confirming that he had already abandoned living like a Jew usually.)


There is one other verse to mention, which ties in with your questions about the New Covenant.

When Jesus answered Nicodemus, (John 3) He said 'You [u]must[/u] be born again'. So this was the first time Jesus said 'must'

There is a root in the word '[u]nat[/u]ion', which directly refers to the [u]nat[/u]ural birth of the person. Therefore, when we are 'born again' we become part of a new [color=006699](spiritual) [i]nation[/i] who have been born from above (of God).[/color]

The Old Covenant offers many parallels in shadow, including that it was conditional. Being born Jewish didn't make a person right with God [i]per se[/i], but keeping the law did.

Now, through the coming of the New Covenant, keeping the law became obsolete, and doesn't make a person right with God; but believing in Jesus Christ's life, death and resurrection (with all their implications for our obedience to live by faith in the Spirit, and walk in newness of life doing our Father's will, daily) is what counts.

Many Hebrews died in the wilderness for breaking the Old law by their unbelieving behaviour, and excluded themselves from the promise God had given them. Likewise we can exclude ourselves from the promise of eternal life, by preferring to keep the law, rather than to enter into faith with God through Jesus.

If Paul wrote Hebrews, he said to them 'Let us study therefore, to enter into rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief' (Ch 4).

I agree with Paul that it [i]is[/i] a matter to be studied and [i]mastered[/i], on which our whole salvation rests. Amen. (No pun intended - sorry!)

 2007/10/11 1:01









 Re:

Dear brother micah.

My Quote: """Please Brother do not compare the work that God does, and the work the Jesus came to do here for us, to the same works that he wants us to rest from."""


Respectfully. Do you believe in the Trinity? If so, you are teaching directly against what Jesus is saying NOT to do.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Brother, talking about taking things out of context. Where in my statement, did I imply anything against the Trinity?

Please Go back to my post and please read it carefully, there is no such a statement there whatsoever.

Just to clear things up.

I do believe in the Trinity, God the FAther, Jesus the Son and The Holy Spirit.

God gave the commandment for us to rest of our labor.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Thank you brother for pointing out John 5:17, I thought that is what were talking about.

You quote my question back, but you did not give me an answer.

So here it is again.

My other question to you is, When God rested on the seventh day of creation. Did the Sun rise or it didn't for God was resting? Did the moon shine in the evening? Did the whole creation that he had just finished creating, stand still, while God was resting?

We know that God rested on the seventh day, and felt refreshed. But we also know that The sun rose, the mist came down, the moon shone and all that. God is so Awesome that He can Rest to give us the example and He can also set things into motion, so life goes on on its course without having to come to a complete stop.

Can we compare God' works with our labor. Can we compare Jesus works with our labor, can we compare the Works of the Holy Spirit with our labour? I am talking about the labor God wants us to rest from.
AM I dividing the Trinity? most definetely not. I am just pointing out that their works are completely different than the labor we are supposed to stop on the seventh day.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Quote:

I have read the forth Commandment, but the question is, have you read read Jesus' Commandments. Here it is (in scripture).

Matthew 22:34-40.

Brother that is where we disagree. I believe that Jesus and the father and the Holy Spirit are one. God's law, Jesus law are the same. to me there is no difference. Jesus came to fulfil His father's Law, not to destroy. by doing that He was fulfilling His own law, We all know that He came to do the will of the FAther, not His. But by doing the will of the Father He was doing His will as well, for they are one in accord.

To me matthew 22:34-40, Jesus is clearly talking about the Ten commandments.

First four commandments, showing how I am to serve God.

The six others, how I love my brother or enemy, if you so want to say.

What is this law and the prophets that He talked about?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

One thing I must say though, Everybody keeps throwing back the argument that, if I keep the SAbbath Holy, I am disregarding the other days, or if I keep the sabbath holy, can I live an unholy life the other six days? That is not what God commanded us to do at all.

He Said, six days you shall labor, but the seventh day no work shall be done.

Very simple and clear.


Do I still have to pursue a holy life the other six days? most definetely. Do I regard the other six days as a God's gift? most definetely. But one fact remain, He, The God Almighty demands us to keep His day Holy,(Seventh day, Sabbath, Saturday) not sunday, not first day.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Quote:""""I will state the same thing that I have stated in other threads. That is: When a man tells me to STOP listening to what Jesus says and start listening to what “that man” thinks, I will “end the conversation”.""""



Please brother feel free to stop the conversation at any time. Nobody should feel obliged to do any thing they don't want to. but please do not say that someone, In love, trying to point out to you about God's holy law, is telling you to stop listening to Jesus. where did you get that from?

Am I asking you to stop listening to what Jesus said? most definetely not, for if I say that I would fall into contracdiction. I believe that God gave us the Ten commandments, I believe that Jesus gave us the Ten commandments,(Matthew 22:34-40) and I also believe that The Holy Spirit Gave us commandments(Mathew 22:34-40) to me, they are one in mind and character. They do not have different laws, as you are saying.







 2007/10/11 7:23









 Re:

Dear brother deltadom

The word Rest is to be used in relation to our six day labour. Jesus said that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Can we still get phisically tired by doing good to others on the SAbbath? Sure, but that is not labour as to get something in return, we do it to benefit others, not us.

My question is, if Jesus said it is lawful to do good on the sabbath, it tells me there there are things that is unlawful to do on on the sabbath.

Please do not say that what I mean is that you have to live holy on the sabbath and have six days to do whatever your flesh wants.

Again, this is not what God commanded us, He was very clear when He said, thou shall not labour on the seventh day. You still have to live a godly life the other six days, but on the seventh you should not do any labour.


God Bless

 2007/10/11 7:35









 Re: The New Day of Rest


Dear jayme,

I have one simple question which arises from your last post.

In your understanding, is the Sabbath of the fourth commandment limited to the seventh day....? as my understanding from scripture is that a sabbath could fall on any day of the week, depending [u]when[/u] God decreed it should be, and the important thing then was, (as you mention about not doing work for a return such as pay,) was to spend that sabbath doing [u]what[/u] God had decreed should be done in it.

 2007/10/11 11:05





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