| Poster | Thread | Compton
Member
Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732
| | Re: | | Mike,
There is always a warm sense of a grand embrace to all the saints in your reflections dear brother. This unspoken gift you have is one the many continual blessings you are to this place.
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this want of 'fairness' in our derivatives, the giving of a 'fair shake', especially those who have been crowded into these categories that they end up being victims of even if it is the furthest thing from their minds.
Indeed. I kept wondering to myself as I was writing that last post, how do I avoid turning this into yet another 'rule' to pile upon the brethren who often already feel piled on? Many simply want to walk with their beloved in the garden, and then along comes a wiseguy like Compton to tell them that the garden they are walking in is really a minefield fraught with unseen peril.
Of course this is not my desire at all, and I eagerly downplay the significance of my thoughts in the overall fabric of this topic.
Whitefield himself used the phrase 'mystical union with Christ' to describe how evangelical faith, was different from the high church religion of his day.
To let the cat out... I myself have been called 'mystic' more then once. Occasionally by Christians, and once by an amused liberal professor who seemed to think my straightfoward statements of a living Jesus made me less fit for American religion and more fit for mystical estasticism. (I was sorely dissapointed that this impression is all I left him with.)
I fear my own 'mystic' quality to people has often only been of my own soulish energetic creativity, which may be a sincere desire put into fresh words what 'we have seen and heard'...but is more often a sincere yearning to know something more of what others have seen and heard. (I believe many ministries today are energized by similar soulish capabilities.) My sincere desire to articulate spiritual things has been lately a blessing, but I also remember it has been a stumbling block.
It has been the greater stumbling block to myself ironically...because people in the past have responded more to my expression of this 'mystical union' then the reality of it in my life. (We can be lured by articulation, a word that I notice begins with 'art.') And while they were responding favorably to my expression they did not notice my immature character...an oversight that the 'mystical' Jesus himself has to often correct with a very concrete hand.
And so, I realize that if I can decieve myself with sincere imaginations, even with sincere tears, I need to be more careful about what I articulate...to desire substance more then expression.
Now, I do not want to frantically wave people away from mystical inward rapturous experiences as a rule. Indeed, Jesus is dwelling within, and at certain times we are blessedly and keenly aware of this. In a trial Jesus may very well be making his presence known to the hurting and lonely soul, or to the street preacher strengthening the heart that needs boldness to speak, or to a compassionate minister, loving right through this willing vessel to some poor smelly person on the street.
Yet, we know he desires full time residence, that we are acknowledging him in all we do, not just in the mystical times. True, he is comforting us mometarily through our inspirations and senses, and I do not ever want to take that away from the brethren. Yet I have learned in small, joyful, and sorrowful lessons, that the comfort we desire of faith, hope, and love, is much more enduring when these become part of our character.
Perhaps this is my only important point in all my long winded point-making. The the gift of the Holy Spirit's comfort need not be a fleeting sensation of love or courage in a moment of deep worship, but sculpted, fired, and hardened into substance of character, the creation of the New Man who comforts others quite 'naturally' without the slightest whiff of mysticality. (is that a word?)
Blessings,
MC
_________________
Mike Compton
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|  2007/9/29 13:12 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: Knowing what I don't know | | Ah MC,
Brother, two peas in a pod we are ... I keep telling myself that I am surely the most peculiar person to ever have the Spirit of the living God taken up residence in, yet at the same time you would likely challenge that.
;-)
Recall a line you once stated, "If they only knew!"
Here comes that dreadful word ... balance, again. And maybe it is poor enough for all the derivatives, perhaps it's just plainly [i]caution[/i]. I full well understand and grapple with those who are quite rightly concerned over the mis-mash and confusion of so much out there, the extremes canceling out one for the other, every cliché' for the baby with the bath water, spiting out the bones ... It is very much the 'either\or' that I find myself inwardly fighting against when honesty disallows it. When we are unable to firmly pigeon hole something into the 'clever schemes we have concocted in our heads' to butcher Ron's line ... It is simple and easy to criticize what we do not understand or have not really searched out to see if things be so ... The hardest thing to reconcile is this dividing of Spirit\Word even while we have perhaps the greatest definition ever uttered;
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the [b]words[/b] that I speak unto you, they are [b]spirit[/b], and they are life.
But warnings we need indeed in this day and hour, no doubt about it, just odd sometimes that we need warnings for the warnings ... :-?
There is just no getting around the 'odd' things in this life with the Lord, it is why at this stage so far I have largely quit the business of over thinking and having an end of conclusion mindset. It just keeps getting dashed to pieces far too often by real life experience that can reach back and recall some .... odd, weird ... misti... No brother you are and perhaps I too are speaking the same language. Was just reading again back through some of George Fox's journal and it just about floored me to take notice of something;
[i]Now while I was at Mansfield-Woodhouse, I was moved to go to the steeple-house there, and declare the truth to the priest and people; but the people fell upon me in great rage, struck me down, and almost stifled and smothered me; and I was cruelly beaten and bruised by them with their hands, and with Bibles and sticks. Then they haled me out, though I was hardly able to stand, and put me into the stocks, where I sat some hours; and they brought dog-whips and horse-whips, threatening to whip me.[/i]
With their [i]Bibles[/i]!
Oh my ... Could stretch that into an easy analogy.
The Paul Washer message really gets down to brass tacks as it were. The sheer honesty and forthcoming of the mans heart, the bleeding of his very marrow into expression ... It was as if I could here dear Art Katz again saying, [i]To know God is everything[/i].
"The stamp of God on the man" I believe I heard him say in there somewhere in that message. That is what becomes the determining factor, it is also why I see such little difference between all those quoted up above in that little treatise of divergent thought amongst all these living and dead saints. Praise God for this healthy ignorance, I plan on keeping to it ... well hopefully anyway.
It seems maybe what is more needed is something to solidify this 'mystical' definition into something substantive ... if it is too loosely defined it is indeed trouble, all the very things you brought forth about these susceptible minds and their imaginations. Goodness if anyone is a bit paranoid about our present day 'prophets' for instance ... I digress. "Perhaps" is the great balancer (My turn, is that a word?) Again, Sparks comes to the rescue about our easy penchant to 'get our wires crossed' we are just as easily deceived even when we have some measure of discernment and are apt to go about beating with both our sticks and our Bibles if we are not more careful. That is not what you are doing, have gone off to generalities once again, but even Paul Washer makes a very good mention of this in that message.
Another good message for our brothers question that just dawned on me;
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=2763]Intimate Union[/url] [i]By Art Katz[/i]
Good stuff MC
_________________
Mike Balog
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| | 2007/9/29 15:12 | Profile | ginnyrose
Member
Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: A vital doctrine the church has failed to teach me... | | Brother,
I have tried to read all the posts here and you got a lot of excellent admonitions, so I will not go there: in no way can I improve on what Compton, Mike, et al have said.
You wrote:
I do not know what churches you have been in, but may I venture to say the answer to your question [i]could[/i] be a "yes"? You see, as we walk with God, He will in time reveal Himself more to us as we are open to this revelation. You see it is the process of "being changed from glory to glory". And there is more to come! :-)
God is not dull, is he? It is us who are dull!
Blessings,
ginnyrose
_________________
Sandra Miller
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| | 2007/9/29 15:12 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Are ye so ... | | Quote:
It is us who are dull!
Didn't see you there sister and stepped right over you it seems as the replies came in simultaneously.
Oh indeed and [i]ignorant[/i] ... slow to grasp [i]all[/i] that the ...
Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Slow of heart ... to believe ...
Mar 9:19 And he answereth them and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I bear with you?
Incredible it is
_________________
Mike Balog
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| | 2007/9/29 15:21 | Profile |
| | Re: A vitial doctrine that the church failed to teach me... | |
Dear MC,
I hear you. I have read your posts very carefully. Then I came to this:
Quote:
... My sincere desire to articulate spiritual things has been lately a blessing, but I also remember it has been a stumbling block.
It has been the greater stumbling block to myself ironically...because people in the past have responded more to my expression of this 'mystical union' then the reality of it in my life. ... And while they were responding favorably to my expression they did not notice my immature character...an oversight that the 'mystical' Jesus himself has to often correct with a very concrete hand.
Brother,
What you've explained here, is something an artist knows about: perspective.
You have described the [i]view[/i] from your own eyes, the eyes of others and the eyes of Jesus, and possibly you've said you believed what you saw others thought they saw, but you know that what Jesus sees is the truth.
Let me put it to you that it is the Lord's kindness to us that He shields others' eyes from what He sees of our inward nakeness, and He picks His own timing for revealing those truths to us.
If we are aware of this, then even though there may be others who have been given to 'see' what the Lord sees, it is entrusted to others only who love. I'm sorry you have been stumbled by discovering the discrepancies, because what we know about ourselves is always more horrifying (perhaps to our pride) than it is to either the Lord, or others who have the benefit of knowing themselves not to be as they would prefer in terms of completed completion (perfection).
(I hope I'm making sense, here.) The other factor never to forget as a servant, is that the service you do to the Lord (as you do it to others), is received as from the Lord. His ministry is recognised. This is something you may prefer to downplay in your own mind. A line from a Wesley hymn asks 'Who did not His death procure?' But, to the degree that we have been changed by the Lord into a shade of His likeness, He can and does shine through.
Quote:
Now, I do not want to frantically wave people away from mystical inward rapturous experiences as a rule. Indeed, Jesus is dwelling within, and at certain times we are blessedly and keenly aware of this. In a trial Jesus may very well be making his presence known to the hurting and lonely soul, or to the street preacher strengthening the heart that needs boldness to speak, or to a compassionate minister, loving right through this willing vessel to some poor smelly person on the street.
Yet, we know he desires full time residence, that we are acknowledging him in all we do, not just in the mystical times. True, he is comforting us mometarily through our inspirations and senses, and I do not ever want to take that away from the brethren. Yet I have learned in small, joyful, and sorrowful lessons, that the comfort we desire of faith, hope, and love, is much more enduring when these become part of our character.
Perhaps this is my only important point in all my long winded point-making. The the gift of the Holy Spirit's comfort need not be a fleeting sensation of love or courage in a moment of deep worship, but sculpted, fired, and hardened into substance of character, the creation of the New Man who comforts others quite 'naturally' without the slightest whiff of mysticality.
You know I tend to think in radical terms, disregarding the common usage of the day, but I do now understand your concern that a term like 'Christian mystic', is as impentrable and misleading (perhaps) as a term like 'Christian Bhuddist', the latter having no basis in the Bible at all. I'll stop using it, although I know that it is about knowing only Christ.
Perhaps also, I must admit I remember those long past times of 'feeling' in the Spirit, which had so little impact on my inner transformation; but, I believe that abiding in Christ [i]is[/i], as you said in your leading post, about objective truth, and that 'Christ in me', or, 'I in Christ' are both objective truths if I care to receive them. (I'm not sure how one can establish they are truth while they lie dead on the page.) Except I do receive them, there can be no sculptural Jesus living through my life. I am reminded of Don Francisco's song 'Love is not a feeling', the punchline of which is 'it's an act of your will'.
As we will to abide, Jesus can do His part in and through us.
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| | 2007/9/29 16:26 | |
| | Re: A vital doctrine that the church has failed to teach me | |
MikeB said,
Quote:
It seems maybe what is more needed is something to solidify this 'mystical' definition into something substantive ...
Brother, this brought to mind a sentence which I heard from GW North... have shared it elsewhere here... not sure if it's in the book on the Holy Spirit you've posted. But to me, it has been an anchor of hope, all down many years.
He said: 'The Holy Spirit has come to make the life of Jesus Christ real in your flesh.'
It is an arresting thought!
I believe this also is what MC is after, and is supported by Rom 8:11 - 13.
With regard to the discrepancies MC bemoaned, I believe this has to be understood by us from the start... that in Christ we are completed and in our humanity we are being, as ginnyrose stated ' changed from glory to glory' as we look at 'His face open to us' [i]Tyndale[/i].
I, too, enjoy the wonderful differences between us all and those who've gone before, and wonder at their love and conviction over Christ, which made them stand up in their day for the truth, unwelcome though it was with some people. And I allow myself to be challenged to stand as firmly in Him and for Him. |
| | 2007/9/29 16:38 | | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | There is only one reason the Holy Spirit is here.
Teach us Christ:
John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:13-16 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
To teach this mystery of Paul, "Christ in you the hope of Glory".
He won't speak of Himself, He will guide you into all truth, whatsoever Jesus Has said, He will glorify Jesus Christ, He will testify of Jesus Christ, He will teach us all thing that Jesus has said and even the thing they could not bear, He shall be in you even as Jesus Christ is in our Spirit, the Holy Spirit is in our soul, our mind will and intellect, where we know, That Christ is in us.
This is what the Holy Spirit is hear for, to teach us Christ to distribute and direct His gifts to man, and to direct and distribute the spiritual gifts of His that will Glorify Jesus Christ, Not Man.
There is no mysticism in this, just truth spoken by the Lord Himself.
Proof: 1Cr 7:34 There is difference [also] between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please [her] husband.
1Cr 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
No one received it before Christ sent Him on Pentecost: Ephesians 3:4-12 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
Now by Paul we receive the truth revealed by Christ Himself and the teaching of the Holy Spirit.
Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Paul was not a mystic, but a teacher of the truth of Christ in you the Hope of Glory to fulfill the word of God for this age.
Pregnancy is not mysticism, either is this Seed of The Father that is born again in the believer, the new life of another person, that is Christ Jesus in you the Hope of Glory.
In Christ: Phillip
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Phillip
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| | 2007/9/30 1:07 | Profile | MaryJane
Member
Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057
| | Re: A vital doctrine the church has failed to teach me... | | Greetings
Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who posted links to the different sermons. I have been blessed mightily by them. I am still seeking to understand all that He has for me and I know that God is faithful and He will continue to open my eyes and reveal Himself to me as I walk in Him daily.
God Bless
maryjane |
| | 2007/9/30 13:08 | Profile | Here4Him
Member
Joined: 2006/9/23
Posts: 212
England
| | Re: | | God Bless you MaryJane, the Lord will certainly do all that as you walk with Him.
I must admit i was beginning to get a bit lost in some of the long, deep and slightly off the point recent posts. I am not meaning to chide anyone, who am i to do that. I am sure it was helpful for some of you, but i am keen to bring this discussion (if we can, and if it is not already over) back to the wonderful and simple truth of the docrtine of union with Christ, that to be a Christian is to be in Christ and Christ in you.
Has anyone listened to the Ted Donelly sermons, and what have you learned through them that has been new or fresh to you? I am interested to hear because that series of sermons have been huge to me!
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George Platt
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| | 2007/10/1 7:50 | Profile | Compton
Member
Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732
| | Re: | | Quote:
Brother, two peas in a pod we are
I'll take that as a wonderful compliment.
Actually there is more embodiment then lecturing in this thread...which is a wonderful demonstration and blessing to me right now.
And, still wanting to make sure that I have not 'quenched the spirit' in anyone's current place with the Lord, I need to downplay once again my concerns.
If there is one area that we can't start making our own rules, it is this one. I'm reminded of the idea I've heard around here before...the solution to abuse is not disuse but right use. I believe the Spirit, even this weekend, put something back in my heart and path, that I had laid down (obediently for a season I believe) to remind me that the Lord we follow is not a list of principles but a person.
And above all, the heart I want to govern my reflections and speech on this tender but awesome mystery is for a sincere love of the brethren.(1 Peter 1) Against that measurement of Christ dwelling in me, I really know nothing and still have everything to learn.
Blessings all,
MC
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Mike Compton
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| | 2007/10/1 19:27 | Profile |
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