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 Re:

Quote:
Can anyone suggest a sermon audio that is along this line as i would be keen to hear it???



I would suggest listening to the White Horse Inn.

http://www.whitehorseinn.org/

 2007/9/25 8:55
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

As we discuss this subject of abiding in Christ, it might be helpful to point out a possible substitute: mysticism.

With so much inexact and sentimental language surrounding this topic, is there a way we can tell the difference between a writer who is abiding in Christ according to the doctrines of scripture and someone who is seeking a mystical experience?

(Edit: Shortened post)

Blessings,

MC


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Mike Compton

 2007/9/25 10:40Profile
nrlcharlie
Member



Joined: 2007/8/20
Posts: 12
Brisbane Australia

 Re:

Thank you all for your recomendations...

I will go and listen/watch these titles mentioned and try and PM all who responded with my thoughts on these materials.

I really appreciate it.

Bless you all and the SI community at large it's a fantastic thing.


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---

 2007/9/26 21:38Profile









 Re: A vital doctrine the church failed to teach me...

Compton wrote

Quote:
As we discuss this subject of abiding in Christ, it might be helpful to point out a possible substitute: mysticism.

Brother Mike,

Do you mean [i]eastern[/i] mysticism, which has no objective and eternal good God into which to sink not only our faith but our whole [i]beings[/i] - bodies, senses, minds, souls and spirits?


Because... surely abiding in Christ is also a mystical truth, within a straightened defintion of mystical.

You remember the song 'why should the devil have all the good music?' - or something like that ;-) . I think the same about being a Christian mystic. We don't need to let the world or other religions usurp what is an absolute and eternal truth, just like we don't need to let them tell us [i][b]we[/i][/b] got some of our ideas from 'pre-Christian' religions. Well of course we did. Christ wasn't born until 2000 years ago. So who did they think held things together before His incarnation....? (rhetorical question... no need to answer)

Do I sound tired? I am. I'm thinking of taking a nap. If my tone is not okay, please make allowances for such simple brevity.

I'll come back later, expecting a thought-provoking repost. :-D

 2007/9/27 8:42
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3698
Ca.

 Re:

Here4Him,

Ted Donnelly is so right on in his presentation. I have only listened to the first one and will hear the other three. This is what our union with Christ is all about. New creation race of people in Christ. All else is, as Paul puts it dung. God only deals with us through Christ or Adam, Christ does as the Father says, Adam does as his father says, whom he chose to believe, Satan, that is in all the children of the first Adam. Praise God the Last Adam is available if we just believe into Christ.

Thanks for the invite to listen, it truly is brilliant.

Thanks, Love in Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/9/27 20:31Profile
Here4Him
Member



Joined: 2006/9/23
Posts: 212
England

 Re:

Quote:
surely abiding in Christ is also a mystical truth, within a straightened defintion of mystical.



I must admit i agree with whatt sister Dorcas has said here. I was also a little uncomfortable with what brother Mike said. I understand that his concern probably comes out of a heart wanting to walk in the truth and avoiding error, i also understand that it is probably out of a love for the Word of God that our brother said what he said and we need to be careful we are not getting led offtrack or astray. However i have no problem with our relationship with Christ having a 'mystical' element to it- if you want to call it that. Maybe the term is unhelpful because of ite conotations and associations with other dangerous religous practises.

What i mean is that i want my walk with Jesus Christ to be more than just an intellectual relationship with the written word, instead i want to go through the written Word to the LIVING WORD Christ Jesus Himself and i want to commune with Him on a spirit to SPirit level and eat His flesh and drink His blood so to speak. So yeah i do want a mystical union with Christ, although again maybe there is a better word we can use instead of mystical! Just my thought!

I think we need to be careful that as Dorcas says that as we react against error we dont go too far the other way. I agree that in rejecting the devils counterfeit we must be careful that we do not throw away God's genuine article with it just because the devil had got a counterfeit that has certain similarities. But in all things as brother Mike would say we must be guided by the Word otherwise we get led into all sorts of strange practises.

Also Philip i am so glad to hear how the Lord is blessing you through Ted Donnelly's sermons, i believe this teaching is so important i want everyone on SI to hear it, i feel like i want to shout about it from the rooftops you know?!!!

How wonderful that God has taken us out of Adam and put us into Christ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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George Platt

 2007/9/28 9:56Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
Because... surely abiding in Christ is also a mystical truth, within a straightened defintion of mystical.

i want my walk with Jesus Christ to be more than just an intellectual relationship with the written word,



I certainly want avoid placing a straight-jacket on the brethren here as they seek to know the Lord intimately. I suppose I was too brief and unclear in my question about mysticism.

Forgive me for being too general.

I do believe however we should avoid the use of 'mysticism' even if we think it can have two meanings. In the very least, that a term we mean to describe our union with Jesus can be so easily related to cultic practices, and is dependant on a continual program of disambiguation to reabilitate it, is reason enough to shy away from it.

My objection to mysticism is not an adherence to strict spiritless textualism, or an obvious caution against 'eastern' meditation, but is a reminder that there are powerful emotional and even psychic aspects of our own natures to keep in mind. Again I risk being too general here--- I do not mean 'psychic' in the Shirley McLane sense, but that we human beings are gifted with some extraordinary abilities to mimic the stirrings of the spirit in our flesh.

Let me approach this from anecdotal testimony. I knew an impressive man once that had an uncanny ability to 'prophecy' to people who were almost perfect strangers. Yet, in the end this man was a deciever as evidenced by disastrous and destructive fruit in his life. How then could he prophesy and give words of knowledge? Did he have union with the Spirit of God as he boasted?

I do not believe so. I believe we humans, (some more then others), have an ability to sense one anothers thoughts, emotions, whatever, and we can manipulate these elements. I believe many carnal people are operating under the guise of spiritual giftings through this soulish ability. They become 'familiar' with people very quickly.

Now how do we detect this tendency to imtitate the Holy Spirit to both ourselves in self-deception and to others in manipulation? My limited experience is that true abiding with Christ is not only on the level of inspiration, emotion, and sense (things that can be both authentic expressions of the life of God in us, and expressions of our own yearnings), but more fully proven when His abiding residense produces a clear conformity to Godly character. Such fruit of the Spirit may be partially or temporarily imitated but in the end the real comes into season and the tree is known.

For instance...a couple of weeks ago our associate pastor, an elderly saint of small physical stature preached at our church. Now I've known him to be godly man, through watching him week after week. Yet, being relatively new to the church, I had never heard him speak. When he announced his topic was on keeping the sabboth, I admit I was preparing myself to listen only out of sheer respect and not interest. Yet, how wrong I was. All during his message my eyes were misty, my heart was filled with wonder at the effusion of Godly wisdom that flowed effortlessly from this man. Here was a man that clearly walked with the Lord! He could have taught on any subject in the bible and probably left me with the same tenderness of heart.

Now what is interesting, is that even though this unassuming man's heart divulged that Christ abided there, I doubt he would have been quick to rhapsodize about his 'mystical union'. (Though I am sure, according to his brethren heritage, he would've been able to articulate about such a union with Christ if asked.) But he was not so complicated...to him the Lord was simply and deeply real to him, a trusted friend, a wonderful counselor, a savior and all the other comforts of the person of Jesus Christ.

Compare this humble but profound example of abiding with Christ to many modern examples of supernaturalists, estatic spiritual leaders who have godly visions and dreams but no Godly character. They think they mean well, but their outerman is too strong and is still ruling their 'ministry'. The images they see are vivid enough to them and even to the people they minister to, but in the end their spiritual emissions are mere projections of themselves. This is a very real and serious phenomenon that takes in many well meaning people even about themselves.

To me, the word 'mysticism' is talking about an effusion of the natural man, not an effusion of the Holy Spirit. To be sure, mysticism is not merely emotionalism, but a demonstration that man is a spiritual creature, capable of spiritual expression and mechinations even to himself in private. But experiences of mysticism, as spontaneous as they might seem, are not a safe demonstration that a man's spirit is abiding with the person of Jesus.

Godly character is the only way I know to authenticate who is abiding in Christ. (If someone knows a better way, I am truly willing to learn.) I believe this important understanding has more to do with the power of Godliness then supernatural manifestations.

Now, in the end, I'm just a fellow with my own experiences. I'm only testifying that I have seen some dark and confusing riddles in the church...sometimes very self-decieved riddles wearing suits and ties, stirring up expectations with prophecy, pentrating mens' souls to the amazement of the whole congregation with such convincing lucidity...but in the end these dark riddles prove to be wolves that ravage the flock with disolusionment.

Still dear brethren, I'm not wanting to hinder any ones closeness to the Lord. So please take my comments as additive, and not subtractive, to the fellowship you experience with the Lord. I know how tender is the fellowship of the Lord and would be loathe to dissuade any from enjoying him. My only point is to test the legacy of our spiritual experiences to see whether they be spurious or heavenly; that even after they fade to our senses they have left behind the enduring Fruit of the Spirit according to scripture.

Quote:
... we must be guided by the Word otherwise we get led into all sorts of strange practises.



Amen.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2007/9/29 0:58Profile
Here4Him
Member



Joined: 2006/9/23
Posts: 212
England

 Re:

Quote:
My only point is to test the legacy of our spiritual experiences to see whether they be spurious or heavenly; that even after they fade to our senses they have left behind the enduring Fruit of the Spirit according to scripture.



Brother Compton, thank you, you made some very good points and i think what you said is helpful and truthful.

You are right, true union with Christ or experiences of encountering Him supernaturally will produce godliness in our lives. Not just the absence of the negatives i.e. the sins we should not commit, but more than that a presence of the positives- all the fruit of the Spirit such as genuine sacrificial love (which cannot be found any other way) flowing from our lives.

Thank you brother


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George Platt

 2007/9/29 10:34Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Mystery and ...

Quote:
I do believe however we should avoid the use of 'mysticism' even if we think it can have two meanings. In the very least, that a term we mean to describe our union with Jesus can be so easily related to cultic practices, and is dependant on a continual program of disambiguation to reabilitate it, is reason enough to shy away from it.



As another pointed out here the connotations derived from certain words ... As you go on brother further, think this is accurate, there is something very troubling about the labeling that is used and applied with so many, many things.

It was Philologos who put me to much of a similar challenge and caution some years back now in this regard. I was and am still fond of some of these very labeled as such saints of the past, many names could be brought forth and to do so would bring out the charges and indictments ... It is so much easier to slap a label, push into a category, whitewash, blacklist, stereotype then I fear many would allow just an investigation fully into. Getting ahead of myself here.

Quote:
I do not believe so. I believe we humans, (some more then others), have an ability to sense one anothers thoughts, emotions, whatever, and we can manipulate these elements. I believe many carnal people are operating under the guise of spiritual giftings through this soulish ability. They become 'familiar' with people very quickly.



Not a bit ironic that this has been up on the desktop this week again, stumbled upon it as an old link;

[url=http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/latent_power_of_the_soul.htm]The Latent Power of the Soul [/url] [i]by Watchman Nee[/i]

It certainly ties into a great deal of this expression and perhaps explanation even.

To back up again ... Maybe what is being drawn out and wanting of it's own expression is this want of 'fairness' in our derivatives, the giving of a 'fair shake', especially those who have been crowded into these categories that they end up being victims of even if it is the furthest thing from their minds.

For some odd reason an old bit keeps coming back to mind and as is my usual trait, many things derived from many different postings. Recalled that I had written this some time back and went searching for it ... Oh my, the long history of this fellowship, so many pains and strivings, just to review this again ... At any rate, the following extract starting from a brothers quote;

Quote:
My point again is who cares what you believe...WHAT IS THE TRUTH?


Have often dwelt on that question in the broad sense as you stated [i]which message is right[/i]? It may well be that the answer will always be a bit elusive. Here's a bit of musing from yesterdays notes;

[i]One of the great things about this place is the confounding of so much, the demolishing of so much presumption, the dismantling of 'denominational' constructs. It is a wonderful paradox to brood on.

How far different, to take just a cross section, is T. Austin Sparks from Keith Daniel, from Ron Bailey, from Art Katz, from David Wilkerson, from A.W. Tozer, from Zack Poonen, from Leonard Ravenhill? From Finney, from Wesley, from P.T Forsayth, from Watchman Née, from Oswald Chambers, from C.H. Spurgeon, from Chip Brodgan, from Robert Murray McCheyne, from Brother Lawrence, from Brother Andrew, from Paris Reidhead, from Ravi Zacharias, from Ray Comfort, from Ray Stedman, from R.A. Torrey, from Martin Lloyd Jones, from George Whitefield, from Stephen Kaung? Andrew Murray... Mueller[/i]

The 'easy' and perhaps even glib answer is, well, they all love the Lord or they are still brothers and all that is true. But I believe there is something intangible and further buried deep down than that which can be expressed easily. It is in part and maybe large part, character and just as well, personality. The above out-take there came about from a snippet out of T. Austin Sparks comments in another posting;

[b]Personality.[/b]

I repeat, then, that it was the glory of His personality as the Son of Man; for, almost in association with that, He spoke of His coming again as being 'the coming of the Son of Man in the glory of the Father'. This, so far as His perfecting was concerned, was not something that took place on the Mount. The Mount was the mark of the CONSUMMATION of His perfecting. I do not mean in the matter of sin - sinfulness or sinlessness - but the perfecting of His character, the perfecting of that inner man which we call personality. Personality is a strange thing, an elusive thing, something that you cannot get hold of, but you cannot mistake; it is THE person within - the man inside. Now, He, in that inner life of His, had worked out this whole matter of God's pleasure, God's satisfaction, through His life. There was the Divine approval at His baptism in similar words, indicating, probably, that His thirty years were approved; certainly indicating that the step that He was now taking, right out into public, with the Cross accepted (for His baptism certainly implied that) was approved. That brought the word from Heaven: 'My Beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased'.

~T. Austin Sparks
Men Whose Eyes Have Seen the King

Had really saved these up for a different reason (or season) but maybe it is worth the expression after all, here's the rest;

[i]Mix them up in any order and add in how many others, and pardon the unintentional expression, what a band of mis-fits! It is a wonderful blind ignorance that I could hardly tell which particular labeling by 'denomination' a great deal of these 'worked out of', the point being .... who cares! But it is much broader and all encompassing if we might allow ourselves to take note beyond the mere lip service of this central truth and I will dare to utter it; "Unified"

Just from this random sampling. The timelessness alone something to grasp. Across cultures and generations, circumstances. Add in the persecuted and the missionaries; Livingstone and Wurmmbrandt, K.P Yohanan, Hudson Taylor, Rolland Allen, the names listed in Fox's Book of Martyrs ... Running these partially from memory, partially from the ever growing collection.

The collective thought and the marked differences of particulars, secondary they be. Mix in the saints. Paul and Moses, Peter and Elijah, John and Joseph, Mark and Issiah, Luke and Jeremiah. Stephen and Phoebe, Mary and Mary's, Titus and Lucius, Jason and Sosipater, Tertius, Gaius, Epaenetus, strange names, 'obscure' names. Dare to throw your own hat into the mix. The 'great company of witness's'. Your heritage, your history, your family.

What's the point? Not all of these names are necessarily 'here'. Some have been salvaged and still speak audibly. Some written, some both. Some by extension and recommendation. Some the scriptures themselves. At one point in our lives, they were all foreign to us.

"And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."
Mar 3:32-35

This is what makes this more than just some 'place'. Another in the mix of many? It is distinct in intangibles, in a variety of expression. It is a schooling and a disciple making venture, a seminary of the Spirit ... I believe it to be a 'revival' in and of itself, more than even the pointing to and longing for something of the sort and substance of those in the past. Is it because it tends to dwell on all these 'old', 'dead' 'past' saints? In a word. Yes! Precisely!

But it is not a certain romanticism or nostalgia. It is not a thousand things. It is certainly not the trend of the day, the aptly put "chronological snobbery" that would put this in it's own category and lock it up as 'past'.

Coming here, what, 3 years ago now? Hardly a few of these names I knew, including those in the scriptures. By that I do mean 'knew' or 'know' in the deepest aspect of that meaning. Not so much 'personally', though in certain ways the gleaning of thought brings a certain familiarity. Members of this forum, having come to know by all the interaction and fellowship. Circumstances of our lives shared, the many prayers...[/i]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A bit of a divergence there and the greater context;
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=9873&forum=35&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=0]Revival Idolatry[/url]

Quote:
Compare this humble but profound example of abiding with Christ to many modern examples of supernaturalists, estatic spiritual leaders who have godly visions and dreams but no Godly character.

Quote:
Godly character is the only way I know to authenticate who is abiding in Christ. (If someone knows a better way, I am truly willing to learn.) I believe this important understanding has more to do with the power of Godliness then supernatural manifestations.



To come back to the question at hand and further this great point MC is making ... Godly character ... Our sister recently got my attention in [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=19717&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=0]Is your Worship merely noise?[/url] where she had made mention of a certain Paul Washer message, I have been itching to disclose it here somehow, someway, some right placement that it might be granted a fair hearing.

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=14249](The Glory of God) in Moral Purity[/url]

Don't let the title throw you, it is of such a profound expression of an honest heart I still struggle to give any comment on it. If anything I think it encapsulates much if not maybe precisely the effort here in all that is intended through SermonIndex, be it 'revival' or what have you.
Quote:
i want my walk with Jesus Christ to be more than just an intellectual relationship with the written word,



Think you will be tremendously blessed by that message.

Apologize for the randomness of all this, expression is something that can find strange ways of leaking out.

[i]P.S. Wanted to note the message above is part of a series of four in total, looking forward to the remainder, they are of a similar heading towards the bottom of the page here; [/i][url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=442]Paul Washer[/url]

[i]P.P.S. Corrected the many mispellings[/i] Hopefully


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/9/29 12:05Profile
thomasm
Member



Joined: 2007/8/17
Posts: 116
Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

nrlcharlie wrote:
Can anyone suggest a sermon audio that is along this line as i would be keen to hear it???

Bless you for this post i have been smitten by Him again because of it!

C.C.I




" Himself" by A.B.Simpson ," Wigglesworth" John G Lake. Peter Youngren teaches this, at Peter Youngren.org, A good book on the foundations "in Him" The Normal Christian Life by Watchmen Nee.

Most of these are not audio but, they have encouraged me, in this amazing Grace of God.

love in Christ tom


_________________
Tom weighill

 2007/9/29 12:37Profile





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