17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Once again Compliments, Did anyone lay hands on Cornelius?
What about TODAY, do we need hands laid on us to receive the Holy Spirit?
Are you also saying Philip didn't have the power or authority to lay hands on those with him so they too could receive the Holy Spirit? Why would he deny them the full Gospel treatment? Is God a respector of Persons here?Or maybe Philip was a respector of persons!!??!!
What was your question? MY intrepretation? You are assuming the first group didn't receive the Holy Spirit when they heard the Gospel. I guess they also had to wait for Paul or Peter or John to do that part. Well, what will become of us today, Peter Paul and John aren't here to lay hands on us...Oh dear!!! :-o
Love in Christ
| 2007/9/24 14:38|
What do you think about that????
LOVE thinks NO EVIL as you have of me in your false accusations of my being a smart *whatever*. Comments like that are filtered through your OWN mind and reveal YOUR unloving attitude all ready formulated back on another blog.
I asked you with what I posted, "What do you think about that"?
If I were being smatrt I would say...SO THERE!
(Most)All of you seem to be completely missing the point being made here.....
And the ones who are the most critical have NO scripture to back up what they are saying...only comments based on your own perception of what you think I am saying.
Your're NOT reading any scripture I am putting down so why bother answering you at all.
And Dorcas, Your LECTURE has nothing to do with anything being said here. Your comments do not address ANY scripture whatsoever....
AND you are presuming to assume that you know EXACTLY what I am talking about, or who I am or what motivates me.Please don't, by your own comments....re-arranging my thoughts and telling me and others what I did and didn't say to begin with.
Why do you always assume there is a huge argument oiut of control going on when people disagree on a subject. Just that histeria alone is falsely accusing.
What your really saying is, Be quiet, if you don't agree with others. Read SI's standing on the subject....agree or get off!!!
Love in Christ
| 2007/9/24 15:04|
Have You Received
the First Blessing?
The Holy Spirit does a work within the believer whereby He sanctifies us. This is an experience within the Christian.
The apostle Paul wrote to the church at Corinth, . . . you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God (1 Cor. 6:11).
The context tells us all the sins of these saints that were covered by the blood of Jesus. God chose the believer unto salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth (2 Thess. 2:13; cf. 4:7; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 15:16). Paul has in mind the ultimate goal, our final salvation.
God chose us in the deep counsels of eternity on the basis of His grace and love, and not because of any personal merit on our part. It is all of grace and love. The means God uses to bring us to salvation is the work of the Holy Spirit who sets aside chosen individuals to live holy lives. The Holy Spirit regenerates, indwells, baptizes the believer into the body of Christ, etc. The individual believes in the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ because the Holy Spirit has done His work in our hearts. Then throughout the life of the believer the Holy Spirit applies the Word of God to progressively purify the Christians life.
Sanctification by the Holy Spirit is the first blessing of Gods work in the heart of the believer. This first blessing leads to the full knowledge of justification by faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ for our sins.
No one can be saved without this first work of the Holy Spirit in the heart. The sanctification by the Spirit in the heart brings the believer unto obedience to the sacrifice of Christ. We come to knowledge of our justification when the Holy Spirit brings us to faith in the death of Christ for our sins. His precious blood cleanses the soul of every sinful stain. The blood of Jesus alone makes you acceptable before God. The Holy Spirit brings you to faith in Jesus Christ.
We have been chosen by the Father, purchased by the Son and set apart by the Holy Spirit.
The apostle Paul in the opening chapter of Ephesians lays great stress on what God in grace had done for us. The Trinity is involved in our salvation. God the Father chose me in Christ before the foundation of the world. The Son of God saved when He died for me on the cross. The effectual calling of the Holy Spirit saved me one Sunday morning when my mother and my pastor shared the Gospel and I was born again. It took all three Persons of the Godhead to bring me to salvation. If we separate these ministries, we will either deny divine sovereignty or human responsibility; and that would lead to heresy.
I often hear people say, But I dont feel justified. Our justification has nothing to do with our feelings. The critical question is, Do you believe God is satisfied with the work of atonement Jesus Christ accomplished as your substitute upon the cross? If you believe Jesus is your substitute who died for you on the cross, then God has declared you are justified.
Dont play the doctrine of sanctification against the doctrine of justification as if one is more important than the other. Both doctrines are vital to our full salvation.
Sanctification is not justification. Justification is not something the Holy Spirit does in your heart. Justification is the declaration by the heavenly Judge acquitting you of your guilt. God justifies the believing sinner, based upon the atonement of Christ on your behalf. God acquits you because you have taken Him at His word regarding the death of Jesus Christ. Justification is based upon what Christ did for you on the cross. It is your standing before a righteous and holy God.
Sanctification is not a second blessing; it is your first blessing. It is what the Holy Spirit does at the beginning in your soul and continues throughout your life until He presents you complete in your glorified sinless body in the presence of God at the coming of Jesus Christ (1 Thess. 5:23-24; Phil. 1:6). He will have completed His work in you on that glorious day, and not before then (cf. 1 Thess. 5:2, 4; 2 Thess. 1:10; 2:2; 1 Cor. 1:18; 3:13; 2 Cor. 1:14; Rom. 13:12).
Every born again person has received the Holy Spirit and has been set apart to God. Because of His indwelling presence we long for the time when the Spirit will have reached His goal in our lives and we shall become absolutely and forever sinless and holy. When we see Jesus Christ in glory we will be forever wholly sanctified.
As we walk in the Spirit we live holy lives, and we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh (Gal. 5:16, 17; Eph. 5:18). The only way to live the Christian life is occupation with Christ. All He asks of us is to yield ourselves to Him. As we make ourselves available to Him He lives His life in and through us.
You dont need a second blessing; you need to appropriate by faith the first blessing of the Holy Spirit. You only need to walk in the Spirit. The Christian life is not a sudden growth of spirituality, acquired through a special blessing, but a steady, sincere, patient walk in the Spirit, in uninterrupted growth in grace and knowledge of Christ.
Message by Wil Pounds (c) 2006
| 2007/9/24 15:26|
| Re: Is speaking in tongues...|
I'm sorry. I was wrong. I hope I can do better in future, although I realise we may continue to find we have differing views at times.
I think I should not have directed my thoughts to you alone, (I say this not because you were upset, but because I see it placed an undue pressure on you.) but rather to all the thread's participants, and probably with clearer disclaimers than I included.
I realise now, we don't know each other as well as I thought, for I often post generalities, deliberately to throw other points into sharper relief; but I'm not into drawing out texts like swords, as we should not be fighting [i]each other[/i] with them. :-(
2 Timothy 3:16, 17
[b]All[/b] Scripture [i]is[/i] given by inspiration of God, and [i]is[/i] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
This is relevant though, and I'd be happy for you to use some scripture in your next post to me, if there was some on your mind?
As you said elsewhere, it's never about the other person. I honestly do take this to heart and will be meditating upon it further.
| 2007/9/24 18:24|
| Re: Is speaking in tongues ...|
Having said that Katy, I'd like to comment on the article you posted by Will Pounds, that I think it would need its own thread to be discussed properly, particularly the order in which he puts sanctification.
I guess you didn't notice the strictly-[u]not[/u]-New-Testament-early-mention of [b]Jesus'[/b] blood [u]covering[/u] our sins? Anyone who likes terms absolutely and accurately defined - which the Bible does, wherever it is necessary - should be scratching their head at this carry-over from the previous (Old Covenant) era, which has no relevance in the New Covenant - although he later does allude to [i]cleansing[/i], (which is more correct).
Please remember I am basing my comments on my observation of the article only. I do not assume you agree with him on [i]that[/i] point. Is that clear? I do not expect you to take responsibility for the points he makes with which I may disagree. Those are his responsibility.
| 2007/9/24 18:29|
Dear Dorcas, My apologies to you as well. :-)
This is and will always be a heated debate among the Saints.
In re-reading your post, as I did several times, it came to mind about the terminology "Second Blessing". You are saying we receive many blessings, and YES we do. We are Blessed In Christ as we speak with unspeakable blessings.
Called the "Riches that are in Christ Jesus". Those riches INCLUDE every Blessing, including our Spiritual Gifts to use for His Glory. I can't imagine Jesus giving us a New Car and no car keys to drive. Just an analogy ONLY.
In discussing this concept about *THE* Second Blessing re: The Holy Spirit, and some stating that we don't have the Holy Spirit at conversion, I was moved to go back to the New Covenant Promises given to Israel about the Promise of the Spirit. Ephesians states that Gentiles are partakers of the Covenants of Promise given to Israel. The Promise is the Holy Spirit. There are many scripture that say...the Promise of the Spirit...one in Galatians.....cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree...that the blessings of Abraham would come to the Gentiles that they would receive the Promise of the Spirit.
In explaining this, JulianSans pulls out one sentence (out of context) from the WHOLE context and presumes to announce I was teaching false doctrine. He didn't ask...what do you mean, or explain further or present scripture to refute. I call this kind of debating rude and asking for contention.
So, I will explain even further what I was saying....
Going back to Hebrews 11, it clearly states OT Saints died without the PROMISE. Not the promise of Salvation, but the promise of the Holy Spirit....also stating that they WITHOUT US could not be made perfect. Certainly didn't mean perfect in speaking in tongues, but PERFECT in Christ. The Holy Spirit came to INDWELL ONLY AFTER CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD.
These OT Saints, who were in Paradise or Abraham's bosom( saved by faith in the Cross...they looked forward to from Abel on, were also raised up together with Christ and now we see in Hebrews 12 these are the Spirits of JUST men MADE PERFECT.
We are Perfect and Complete in Christ. We have been Blessed with *ALL* Blessings in Heavenly Places in Christ Jesus.
The Word of God is Complete, and Jesus said My Words are Spirit and they are LIFE.
I've taken no complete sides here...only caution with balanced scripture, and also asking those to look at the verses they were presenting more closely in what it said EXACTLT?
1. Did anyone lay hands on Cornelius?
2. Was there something called a "Second Blessing" also present at the time Cornelius received the GIFT of the Holy Spirit *AKA* The Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The answer is NO.
When bringing out these facts, those who refuse to really look at those verses closely, will instead...insult! That's not conversation or debate, that's what Bill O'Riley calles "Culture Warriors", and that is taking place in the Church today.
Well, sorry that was so long.
I am so sorry you got cought in the middle. And so sorry I took out more frustration on you then I should have. I posted another article (because it seems my words, although the same) may not communicate the Truth that I was trying to get across, as well as he did.
I will leave this as scripture....1 Corinthians 13.
More than tongues....LOVE, HOPE, AND FAITH, Paul says is far superior. I do believe that is true...as I know it is true.
With Love in Christ
| 2007/9/24 19:22|
It shouldn't be heated I am enjoying every minute of this thread.
Now Katy, you didn't even answer my question, but thats ok.
Quote:Your right you won't. However, you will find these words,
You will not find any verse in scripture that says "The Baptism [of] the Holy Spirit".
Quote:Ack, so we say 'OF' instead of 'WITH', nobodies perfect. :-P You gotta love us Pentecostals!
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall [b]baptize you [with] the Holy Ghost[/b], and with fire:
| 2007/9/24 19:37|
why are people being mean spirited to each other on this thread? i only asked a question and it was answered in 10 different ways that i am so thankful for but now people are starting to be very ungodly in some of their comments. this should not be. we are not supposed to accuse each other and hurt each other we are real people in real life and not just posters on a message board. please do not bite and debour one another saints.
| 2007/9/24 21:04||Profile|
Complimants, I too have enjoyed our conversations, and can appreciate a good debate, Grace under fire!!!
I guess teh problem many have with me including the moderators is that I LOVE the WORD of God. I don't play around with it. I believe in the Pam Powder (I think that is how you spell her name) Spiritual diet...if it didn't grow that way don't eat it.
Yes absolutesy Jesus Baptizes us with the Baptism of Fire. That FIRE is the sanctifying work that burns away the chaff. The chaff is the outer fleshly old nature. 1st Peter 4 gives a very clear understanding about the *firey* trials and fellowship of His sufferings, that do just that.
The concept is that of a seed. In the forest, when there are great fires, this is actually when NEW LIFE takes place. It takes the FIRE to actually open the seed or the outer chaff, and bring forth New Life. Peter says teh fellowship of His sufferings is the acid that burns away our attachment to this world and worldlieness so we can live our life to teh will of God.
Some believe in following their INNER LIGHT, without God's Word to sanctify our minds and give us the mind of Christ. What a dangerous concept. This INNER LIGHT seems to want NEW revelations and thinks very little of the tried and true complete nothing new need be added scriptures.
That can only get us into trouble....not to mention another fire that will burn the wood hay and stubble of that Nonsense.
Paul already laid the foundation, and we build upon it... He said Be very careful how you build.
God's word is our perfect instruction manual to build our life IN Him.
I need some sleep!!
Love in Christ
| 2007/9/24 23:38|
| Re: Is speaking in tongues...|
Good morning Katy,
I would use different language and give different reasons to explain why I also trust scripture, but I definitely trust the Spirit within me to recognise the word of God (to my spirit, soul, heart and mind) and bring me 'new' light! How can that be wrong?
Simply reading scripture can be done by anyone, without it effecting any change to their spiritual condition, if it's done without faith.
Also, testimony is a key aspect to how the gospel spreads; personal experience of inner changes promised by preachers leads to more preaching, testifying and faith!
The revelations of God which each of us receive through His written word, are all very necessary also, and most useful for the nurturing of the body of Christ. I am not trying, here, to set up any dissonance but rather resonance. But, of all your paragraphs, how can you say this?
Quote:I hope you can be more specific about what you personally have met in churches, which prompts your statement, remembering that Appollos also had to have the scripture expounded to him more fully, in order to perfect his understanding (Acts 18); by which I mean that even Christians with the views you describe may be open to a fuller - dare I use the word? - Revelation, if given in love.
Some believe in following their INNER LIGHT, without God's Word to sanctify our minds and give us the mind of Christ. What a dangerous concept. [b]This INNER LIGHT seems to want NEW revelations and thinks very little of the tried and true complete nothing new need be added scriptures[/b].
That can only get us into trouble....not to mention another fire that will burn the wood hay and stubble of that Nonsense.
You mention 'the wood hay and stubble' - but this is a possible description of the way the fire of judgement will find some believers' [i]work[/i], [u]at the end[/u] - that is the [i]other end[/i] from that at which the Holy Spirit falls for the first time, to begin to purify the outward expressions of a his or her inner life. (The glory of the gospel is that the judgement due to the world's sin has already fallen on Jesus. Believers escape both it and the wrath to come.)
'complete nothing new need be added scriptures'
But Jesus said:
John 14:16, 17
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [i]even[/i] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but ye know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be [u]in[/u] you.
vv 25, 26
These things have I spoken unto you, being [i]yet[/i] present with you. But the Comforter, [i]which is[/i] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will [u]guide you into[/u] all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [i]that[/i]] shall he speak: [u]and[/u] he will shew you things to come.
In the light of these prophecies from Jesus Himself, can you reject their meaning outright, setting it in frank opposition to scripture?
Quite apart from Pentecost itself, Peter's sermon on that day should instruct all of us to accept the manifestation of the Holy Spirit's effect on lives, whether in visions or prophecies, or other gifts as described by Paul.
| 2007/9/25 9:18|