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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are we born "good"?

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tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Are we born "good"?


Someone recently told me they thought everyone was born good and chooses to go bad. They said God would not create something bad.

Are we humans born ‘good’ and choose to go bad, or are we born ‘bad’ but lacking the ability to express it until we reach a certain age? Is this a total depravity issue?


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TJ

 2007/9/19 18:46Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re: Are we born "good"?

Anyone?


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TJ

 2007/9/20 13:25Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Are we born "good"?

Quote:
Is this a total depravity issue?


Yes, there are quite a few threads on total depravity and/or original sin on the forums.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/9/20 13:48Profile
MSeaman
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Joined: 2005/4/19
Posts: 772
Michigan

 Re: Are we born "good"?

I personally believe that we are born with a sinful nature..not good. Even Jesus who was without sin, said only God is good. If there are any doubts...look at children. when my kids were born and as they grow, I don't have to teach them be selfish or disobedient or any number of bad things. they do all those things naturally. I have to teach them the proper things to do and why.


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Melissa

 2007/9/20 13:52Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

However, an infant or a newborn just out of the womb can not know God and can not be put under the same assessment as the mature for it can not comprehend and therfore can not have a nature against God nor for God (could I say that they are inocent).

When the infant matures, but not yet accountable, has appearances of what we may see as sin, however, babies fuss and scream, refuse to eat, and throw tantrums before they know the difference between right and wrong.

Babies fuss and scream, throw tantrums, etc., not because of a sinful nature, but in response to pain and discomfort and the likes and dislikes of disposition, and the urges and desires of the sensibility, their reactions are according to imaturity and there understanding of life.

To put the indictment or a responsibility of sin that has not yet been committed and put a penalty or a price on the inocent is unjust.

If "Sin Nature" is true, it would pervert the justice of God and distort the love of God.

Since God loves His creation so much, why would He impose a nature on it againt it's will and/or charge it with an indictment or a responsibility which they don't deserve and one of wich HE hates?

Our natuer comes from what we are, which is human.

For example:
Do you try not to cheet on your wife?
No, there is no need to "try" because you naturaly don't cheet on your wife because you love her.

You naturaly sin because you love it, However, if you love the one who keeps you from sin, you would naturaly not sin.

To be born with a "sin nature" one is assuming that an infant already loves sin, however, as an infant, one does not understand sin and therefore can not love it and inturn can not have a nature for it.

The inclination of our will effects individual choices that we make. The choice that you make will naturally follow your inclination. Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than the one commanding you, you cannot consistently do things that please the commander. Your decisions are in bondage to your effections and inclinations so that you only do what you have favor towards.
Love God, hate sin; Love yourself and the world, hate God.

The truth of the matter is selfishness or love of this world

[b]John 15:4b[/b] [color=990000]...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:16b[/b] [color=990000]...and if the root is holy, so are the branches.[/color]
[b]Romans 11:24[/b] [color=990000]For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree...[/color]

While we were not yet grafted into the cultivated olive tree, we were of our own tree with the root of ourself or in this world. If our root is of ourself or the world, we are selfish &/or worldly.

concider this:
A child born and brougt up not knowing God, grows up and becomes accountable for it's own actions will be unable to follow the righteous requirements of the Law because of it's selfish attitude.

On the other hand, a child born brougt up knowing Christ, which is eternal life. The child grows up and becomes accountable for it's own actions will be able to follow the righteous requirements of the Law because of his love for God. John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

This shows that one is born selfish and in reliance on the knowlege of God, not born with a sin nature.

People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.

 2007/9/20 17:01Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.



Is it not natural for an apple tree to produce apples?

Would it not be going against its nature to produce anything but apples?

I’m not sure I understood your post.


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TJ

 2007/9/20 17:39Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
tjservant wrote:
Quote:
People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.

I’m not sure I understood your post.

I'm sure you didn't by the questions you asked. :-)
Quote:
tjservant wrote:
Is it not natural for an apple tree to produce apples?

Yes it is natural for an apple tree to produce apples, because it's root is of an apple tree.
The fruit does not make its nature, nor does the nature deside what its fruit is.

What makes or desides it's fruit is what kind of tree and what it's root is of.
Just as a sinner has fruit of sin because his root is not in Christ, but in the world or self.
Just as a christian has fruit of righteousness because its root is in Christ.

Quote:
tjservant wrote:
Would it not be going against its nature to produce anything but apples?

Not against its nature, but against is kind, or root.
It's nature is to bear fruit.

Concider that human nature is to bear fruit. The fruit is eather good or bad, it only depends on who or what one is rooted in, Christ or the world, Christ or yourself to follow after the lusts of the flesh.

What ever fruit it bears, a tree still has a plant nature. not an apple nature, oriange nature, banana nature.
The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is(a tree) or what nature it has(a plant).
However, what ever it is grafted into does change it's fruit, just as my analogy shows, which is of Scripture as I have shown.

What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.

Just a s a trees nature is to bear fruit, so is mans.

 2007/9/20 19:50Profile





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