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 Re: If I speak up am I in rebellion???


philologos said

Quote:
My problem was the easy way in which this event was introduced into the conversation.

How much weight could be given to the purpose of its mention, had I left it out? Something about walking a mile in another man's shoes comes to mind.

 2007/9/21 10:18
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: what seemed so right was so wrong

Quote:
He said very clearly to me that He has shown me to pray and to interceed because a day is coming when the whole system is coming down. Many will perish, but for the few I am to show HIS radient light and point the way to HIM.



Tina, you have no idea how central your words are to the direction that God has been nudging me towards. In fact they point to the overall direction for my recent postings: God is in the business of building his Church, and he has called us into THAT ministry: reconciliation. Tina, I suspect that some day those “few”, who now are now watching you through the corner of their eye, may seek you out – whey they are ready to seek God’s better way. But they will need a lot of flesh-and-blood mercy and forgiveness.

After all, what could be more excruciating than looking back over one’s past choices – and realizing that what seemed so right at the time actually was dead wrong.

Keep that big bucket of grace on stand by!


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/9/21 11:24Profile









 Re: If I speak up am I in rebellion???



Tina,

Thank you for sharing this (below) on p2, from which Diane quoted the end. I'm posting it again as it seems important to undertsand both of itself for the church, and additionally with regard to the pastor's wife.



[color=006699]'About a year ago this time, I was praying for the school and church when I got a very strong word. Durning my prayer time, I had a very clear vision. One of the "key players" in church came to me and said "Tina, why don't you come to our church?" My response was not mine, but the Holy Spirit's and was [i][b]"Becasue I love Jesus Christ more than Pastor. You must remove pastor from his pedestal or the Lord will. You have all fallen into idolatry."[/b][/i] At first, I was frustrated because I didn't know what to do with this word from God.'[/color]


What kind of person becomes worshipped as an idol?

What kind of activity does idol worship permit, invite, celebrate?


One of the other things you said which has stayed in my mind, is the idea of the pastor looking the other way. This reminds me of the surprise I got when I understood Jesus' words here:

John 10:12
"But a hireling, [i]he who is[/i] not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, [u]sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep[/u] and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.


I had harboured the idea that a hireling sooo doesn't care for the sheep, that he has no spiritual perception at all.

But Jesus here says that he [i]sees[/i] 'the wolf'. He actually [i]recognises[/i] the danger as 'the wolf' but dare not challenge 'the wolf'. In fact, [u]he turns the other way[/u], (unlike David who ran to the lion and the bear to overcome them).


There can be an interplay between a man and his followers, such that they nurture each others' errors, filling themselves up with self-deception, trusting in each others' adulation instead of seeking to be approved by God.

This may not apply to the whole congregation, but the pastor must have desires which hold him in bondage to popular opinion, or, in bondage to his opinion of himself, for the Lord to mention idolatry. In this setting, the carnal man is pushed forward, and the man of faith is decried.

 2007/9/21 17:13









 Re:

Quote:
I guess my question is, do you think speaking up to her is wrong?? Everyone just seems to (pardon the expression) kiss her buttocks, but it seems to keep her bound. I'm not talking about attacking her, but speaking the truth to her!! I appreaciate your prayer and advise.




Tina, I know this may not be what you want to hear. I've been following this thread and I know your feelings and frustrations.

Over the years, I've learned the Lord purposely allows different people and personalities in our (Christians) lives for a reason.

One of the most SHOCKING, and liberating truths is, it's never about that other person. Oh we can struggle for years and years and years with a difficult personality. But actually they are the sand paper or the hammer used in our own life to conform us to the image of Jesus Christ.

FORGIVNESS is one of those wonderful enlightening moments. To be able to love and forgive someone even if they don't deserve it (neither did we) is the School of LIFE we learn of the Lord.

We can't love or forgive anyone in our human strength, and it takes the Grace of God working in and through us to do just that. That IS the Liberating moment.

When we run away from people we don't like, or a job we hate for those reasons, it's funny, we find ourselves right back in the fire, and sometimes an even worse fire.

God doesn't grade on the curve, or just pass you on like they do in school today....you have to PASS the test.

2 Timothy 3 says in these last days people are going to get worse and worse, and because of this, we have to be strengthened to not only deal with it, but not break under it.

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did






 2007/9/21 20:01
tinluke
Member



Joined: 2005/4/8
Posts: 220
New England USA

 Re:

Quote:
One of the other things you said which has stayed in my mind, is the idea of the pastor looking the other way. This reminds me of the surprise I got when I understood Jesus' words here: John 10:12
"But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.



This is a very interesting point Linn. I never thought of this especailly towards his wife.


Quote:
Tina, I suspect that some day those “few”, who now are now watching you through the corner of their eye, may seek you out – whey they are ready to seek God’s better way.




This is my only desire!




Quote:
One of the most SHOCKING, and liberating truths is, it's never about that other person. Oh we can struggle for years and years and years with a difficult personality. But actually they are the sand paper or the hammer used in our own life to conform us to the image of Jesus Christ.



Katy, all I can say to your entire post is... AMEN!! You brought some much needed balance to this thread! I'm sure 99.999% of my frustration is my flesh feeling that rough sandpaper rubbing away!! I want to pray because of GOD'S BURDEN, not my discomfort!!! God can give us a genuine burden, but if not kept in proper prespective, it can become our burden!


_________________
tina

 2007/9/22 12:32Profile









 Re: If I speak up am I in rebellion???


Tina,

I'm not quite sure what you are thinking in connection with the verse about hirelings, but my point was two-fold in that the pastor has a pastoral responsibility to his wife but, if he himself is an idol to himself, then he will be wanting her to worship him. He won't be laying down his life for her as either a husband or a shepherd, and, if it comes to crunch where his reputation and personal safety are in doubt, he will make sure he's ok, because this is all about image. That may be another reason he is not willing to look ugly in public. But, her difficulties maybe something she brought into the marriage, which he cannot address for her.

In all this, I guess I think his wife might prefer not to have a job, but, it makes them look good and he retains a deal of control while not doing the very hard work; and, he has a certain unapproachable distance from everyone.

I realise this is speculation and there can be many other dynamics at work, but I know from my own 'being horrible' past, that one of the things which [i]enabled[/i] my stroppiness, was a lack of a sense of security. I admit too, that could have been all my own inner frostiness.

The point of boundaries is to make a wife feel secure in love and love is key to breaking down her resistance to [i]any[/i] friendship offered her. Really, you have to find a way to ignore certain things and not to take them personally.

I am slowly understanding the place of humility in the Christian life. Somehow [i]true[/i] humility has the power to undermine another person's preconceptions, assumptions and just plain not knowing how others read them.

And that saying, that where there is criticism, it is because the other person isn't in possession of the [u]full[/u] facts, is also very true. I'm aware that's the case here for us all.


You asked 'If I speak up am I in rebellion???'

And then you tell us the Lord has spoken to you a year ago that the pastor is an idol. So, you have already chosen not to bow to him. This means that [i]not[/i] speaking up [u]if the Lord tells you[/u] may be more of a rebellion, because you [i]are[/i] submitted to Him. But, He [u]has[/u] told you to love the pastor's wife, so as long as you [i]are[/i] doing that, you're [u]being[/u] obedient. Amen. I'm sure it's tough, but your Jesus-centredness is unmistakable.

Thank you for sharing this situation with us. It seems to have gotten into my consciousness and I'll be praying you find grace every day.

 2007/9/22 16:57









 Re:

Quote:
Katy, all I can say to your entire post is... AMEN!! You brought some much needed balance to this thread! I'm sure 99.999% of my frustration is my flesh feeling that rough sandpaper rubbing away!! I want to pray because of GOD'S BURDEN, not my discomfort!!! God can give us a genuine burden, but if not kept in proper prespective, it can become our burden!



Tinluke, that came through the school of hard knocks!!!! And I can't tell you how many times I had to go back and learn that lesson OVER and OVER and OVER.

It's so easy to see the error of others and be so blind to our own short-comings.

From the time my youngest was born, until her 14th birthday, I could swear she had a halo and angel wings..."Is this child human" I would wonder. ( Her older brother was definitely human)!!

Well, birthday 14 came around, and OH my, I found myself looking in the yellow pages for an exorcist!!! "Who is this child and where did she come from.?"

The next 5 years were unbearable. It got so bad I can honestly say, I didn't like her or feel any love for her and vice versa. Prolonged anger can do that, and bring on depression as well.

I remembered a woman once in a Bible study class who shared with me about her alcoholic husband. He was mean, hateful and abusive, and not a Christian. She said she had lost all feelings for her husband. One day the Lord told her to just Love her husband whether she felt like it or not. So she said, I told him all the time how much I loved him, and every time he would get mad, she would just put her arms around him and say, I love you. She said before she knew it, the feelings of Love began to return for her.

It was YEARS before her husband got saved and had any feelings to return.

So I know the Lord brought that to mind, and I did the same thing. No matter what my daughter would do or say, I would give her a hug and say “I love you“. Oh yes, I had tried for those years to tell her what was wrong with her, but I'm sure she already knew that. ( That was the problem) Within 6 months she just melted. THEN we began to talk.

Now 31, she is my best friend. She has a wonderful husband, 3 dogs and 2 cats. (no children...she believes in karma). :-P

I learned one of the most awesome lessons from that experience. Remember when Moses came down from the mountain and God was so angry with all the idolatry going on, and Moses said, "If you kill them then kill me too".

That is exactly the same kind of LOVE Jesus felt for us...even while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us....

God uses everything for a purpose, and when we can see that, we can truly Count it all joy when we fall into diverse trials....knowing the testing of our faith works patience, and patience hope....

I learned the POWER of unconditional love. And the POWER of God's Grace working through me...when "I" got out of the way.

Love in Christ Jesus
Katy-Did

PS: Added

I know it says in Proverbs, rebuke a brother and he will love you, rebuke a scoffer and he will hate you.

And I do believe somewhere it says we are not to rebuke a scoffer or we will bring their shame on us.

Not everyone who says they are a Christian is Truly a Christian. That's where it can get really sticky. Because as brothers and sisters in the Lord, we should be able to confront out of Love. But if that person really isn't Born Again, they can't hear you. They process through the flesh of their mind and it is never received the way it is spoken. Just look at the times Jesus spoke to the Pharisees. They twisted, misundertood, and eventually killed the Lord of Glory. Why, It was out of envy, which is the worse form of hate their is.

 2007/9/22 20:33
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7470
Mississippi

 Re: If I speak up am I in rebellion???

Tina,

I do not have the time to read all the posts on this thread, so pardon me if I am being repetious.

As I read your concern, your frustration comes through very clearly. I understand the situation, I think. So I would like to make a few observations, suggestions. They are not given in order of importance but as they occur to me.

Have you ever privately asked her if there is something bothering her? What stress is she experiencing [that is causing her to be so obnoxious, but do not tell her she is]? You might could say you noticed she appears to be stressed....

Angry people cannot be reasoned with...is she angry? Anger is sin, just like adultery, murder...how does your brotherhood deal with these sins?

Study 1 Corinthians 5:7-13 carefully and prayerfully. It just might address the issues you are facing at your school. You do not have to tolerate strife. It acts as a leaven.

Backstabbing, backbiting, hypocrisy is not something the church ladies ought to be engaged in. This also is not loving: they need to repent of this [i]before[/i] any confrontation is attempted.

Yes, Tina, I think confrontation is essential BUT you must do it as a sister who is concerned about the eternal welfare of another. You must know that if a sin issue is involved here, there will be a royal battle because the deviil is NOT a gracious loser and he fights to kill! Be prepared for a royal battle!

Blessings,
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/9/23 22:47Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Yes, Tina, I think confrontation is essential BUT you must do it as a sister who is concerned about the eternal welfare of another. You must know that if a sin issue is involved here, there will be a royal battle because the deviil is NOT a gracious loser and he fights to kill! Be prepared for a royal battle!



Ginnyrose, excellent statement.
I heard someone once say,
If you are willing to confront, you must also be willing to pay the consequesces.

Love in Christ
Katy_did

 2007/9/24 6:52





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