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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
One of the things I realised when I left my husband after nearly ten years, was that I had been lying about our marriage to the church and the world.


I suggest that if you don't want to discuss your behaviour towards your husband publically, you leave out these kinds of references. If you don't mention him, I won't.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/9/19 17:57Profile









 Re: If I speak up am I in rebellion???


Quote:
I suggest that if you don't want to discuss your behaviour towards your husband publically, you leave out these kinds of references.

Thank you for your suggestion, Ron, complete with the 'if's.

I think perhaps you may have misread my post, as the subject of my sentence was 'I'; in a small way 'I' testified to [i]my[/i] faults and [i]my[/i] inability to solve them without God. How do you have a problem with that?

[u]If[/u] it was unclear that I was laying no accusation [i]away[/i] from myself but the reverse was intended, then I do apologise.

 2007/9/19 19:56
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: A tangled mess

Quote:
but the Lord said to me "Yes, and your righteousness is as filthy rags, I have called you to be perfect as I am perfect and to Love her." I pray that the Lord would do a perfect work in me and allow HIS love to flow through me……. I truly want to do what the Lord wants in this situation. God gave me the following verse for her, well not just her, but for me too.



Tina, I am blessed by the way you are responding to this situation: allowing the Lord to build your own faith and character through it.

Quote:
Most people choose to ignore her and talk behind her back, others just quit,.


I suspect that they respond in these ways because they really don’t know what else to do. It’s a terrible, helpless feeling. Of course the problem is nothing unusual, and there is a lot of help out there. But the solution involves costly choices that people may be unwilling to take. Generally speaking, most people in our world would rather live in a bad situation that is at least predictable and familiar to them. And frankly, it’s kind of handy to have someone to blame – rather than take personal responsibility for being part of the problem. (ex through passivity, etc)

Quote:
but I don't want to do either



No doubt your sensitivity to the Spirit will keep you from reacting with the typical knee-jerk reflex: fight or flight. (which includes gossip) You will respond wisely and cautiously.


Quote:
People in the church go out of their way to be kind to her too. Every Monday morning she has flowers delivered to her with notes saying "happy Monday" and such things. She is always greeted with a hug and smile and "God bless you Mrs..." but she continues on her miserable way.


I’m sure that it will soon be apparent to these well-meaning but fearful saints that appeasement doesn’t work.

Quote:
it's much much more than that.


I would think that you are right.

Quote:
I feel like she is spiritualy sick,



Might I suggest that really, it is an entire system that is sick, and the people are all part of it. When I read your description of this lady and all those woven around her life, I envisioned a mass of threads – all tangled up in a big ball. It isn’t easily unravelled. If you try to pull away one string and straighten it up, you find that the other end is tightly knotted in the big mass. And if you go after the big mass, you just make more tangles and find yourself caught in the web. Soon you become frustrated and exhausted, and no closer to the solution.

This reminds me of Jezebel and Ahab, and the rest of Israel – one humungous mess! Where does one start? Thankfully we have that story in the Bible – to show us how God deals with situations like that. By the way if God does call you and empower you to confront the issue, I trust that you, like Elijah, are prepared to be labelled as the “troublemaker” - even by those who are doing the complaining.

Tina, not long ago God led me and a sister believer to deal with something like this – not a church setting, and not nearly as complex, but still, the pattern was the same. Through divine circumstances the two of us were able to offer the “guilty pair” an opportunity to both accept grace and offer grace. Funny, though this couple typically argued together, when it came time for one or both of them to break the damaging behavioural pattern, they chose to unite together in resistance! Again, sinful, dysfunctional patterns are so strong that people would rather hang on to them than change a life-long pattern.

If we keep in mind that all those who are caught in the web are really victims – entangled with sin, we can be merciful to them as a whole, and not inclined to point fingers at one or two of them, as if THEY are the culprits. (that tends to leave the rest off the hook!)

May God give you wisdom and insight as you seek him. And may he protect those dear children at the school who no doubt are touched by this “thing”.


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/9/19 21:50Profile
Isaiah64
Member



Joined: 2006/9/27
Posts: 85


 Re: If I speak up am I in rebellion???

Hi Tina, to add to the advice that has already been given, I just thought of a bible verse that might help you. I don't know if someone already mentioned this (haven't read the other posts), but here it is. God bless!


"If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
(Mat 18:15-17)

 2007/9/20 2:22Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re: finding hope in the mess

Tina, it just occurred to me that in spite of my rather lengthy post, I still neglected to address your original question, and I also ended my post with a “down” note.


I have become convinced (and would love to be proven wrong) that God is not in the business of fixing up ‘sick” systems but of redeeming his own from out of those fires. And perhaps that it the most optimistic outlook to have. Jesus said, “The road is narrow and FEW find it…” Indeed, few desire Christ over and above the “system”. It is a very costly choice. After all, you can’t put your faith in both Christ and a religous system at the same time. So the hope I would like to insert here is that God IS no doubt calling some and transforming them to his image. His Light is indeed working in the darkness, though, it may be occurring down in the “soil” of the hearts. (you are an example)

Observing from past experience, I suspect that as members (even a few) see through the masks, walk in the Light and decide not to play the game, Rev and his Mrs will take to their heals. However, down the road the same drama will be repeated if the members do not see their own part of the problem.

I am becoming convinced that believers best use their energy to strengthen and encourage God’s tender children rather than engage in the hopeless mission of swatting at the monsters – which may include the denominational headquarters (In your case quite possibly a sleeping giant that hates rocking boats and boat rockers)

And about your original question: If you launch out in your own steam to confront the problem, you might indeed be rebellious against God’s best for you. You may find yourself facing a giant that tramples all over you. “Do not throw your pearls before swine… “ Ahh…. fools trample the pearls and then eat you up too.

”Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words.” Proverbs 23:9

”Though you grind a fool in a mortar, grinding him like grain with a pestle, you will not remove his folly from him.” Proverbs 27:22

I've learned through some hard knocks that these verses tend to be true. Still when God calls us into the fire, he will also be our shield.

Diane



_________________
Diane

 2007/9/20 7:28Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3776


 Re:

Quote:
take one or two others along with you,


A wise percaution.


Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/9/20 7:49Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
How do you have a problem with that?


Do you really want to discuss that here?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/9/20 8:24Profile









 Re: If I speak up am I in rebellion???


I asked

Quote:
How do you have a problem with that?

Might I have been better to leave the sentence I thought I had improved with the words 'How do', as I originally wrote it 'You have a problem with that?' It seems you do.

Quote:
Do you really want to discuss that here?

Do I [i]really[/i] want you to post the answer 'here'? I have no idea what you want to say, so how can I respond to your question?

All I can tell is you object to what I wrote, and, I'm surprised at your diverting the thread in this way. But I am ready to listen, if you're ready to talk, and to take your offer of 'discussion' to mean we would both participate in a process, teasing out what's on your mind.

If you choose to answer 'here', I will also, but I'm open to private correspondence on the same basis - between the equals which we are in [i]open[/i] forum.

 2007/9/20 13:57
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
One of the things I realised when I left my husband after nearly ten years


My problem was the easy way in which this event was introduced into the conversation. Remember I was one of those who had the job of trying to put his life back together. Shall I go on?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/9/20 17:17Profile
tinluke
Member



Joined: 2005/4/8
Posts: 220
New England USA

 Re:

Diane,

You said some very important things that I feel the Lord is trying to show me.

Quote:

roadsign wrote:

Quote:
Might I suggest that really, it is an entire system that is sick, and the people are all part of it. When I read your description of this lady and all those woven around her life, I envisioned a mass of threads – all tangled up in a big ball. It isn’t easily unravelled. If you try to pull away one string and straighten it up, you find that the other end is tightly knotted in the big mass. And if you go after the big mass, you just make more tangles and find yourself caught in the web. Soon you become frustrated and exhausted, and no closer to the solution.




When was the last time you visited the church?? Unfortunatly, this describes too many churches in America today. The condition has become almost textbook for the modern American church.


roadsign quote:


Quote:
I have become convinced (and would love to be proven wrong) that God is not in the business of fixing up ‘sick” systems but of redeeming his own from out of those fires. And perhaps that it the most optimistic outlook to have. Jesus said, “The road is narrow and FEW find it…” Indeed, few desire Christ over and above the “system”. It is a very costly choice. After all, you can’t put your faith in both Christ and a religous system at the same time. So the hope I would like to insert here is that God IS no doubt calling some and transforming them to his image. His Light is indeed working in the darkness, though, it may be occurring down in the “soil” of the hearts. (you are an example)




This is so true!! When I first started working at the school, I felt like God had me there to help get things in order... ha ha! It sounds so foolish now. But I really thought that people would see there error according the the WORD of GOD and be like "oh yeah why didn't we see that before?" But instead they gave excuse after excuse for foolish behavior!!

About a year ago this time, I was praying for the school and church when I got a very strong word. Durning my prayer time, I had a very clear vision. One of the "key players" in church came to me and said "Tina, why don't you come to our church?" My response was not mine, but the Holy Spirit's and was "Becasue I love Jesus Christ more than Pastor. You must remove pastor from his pedestal or the Lord will. You have all fallen into idolatry." At first, I was frustrated because I didn't know what to do with this word from God. But He said very clearly to me that He has shown me to pray and to interceed because a day is coming when the whole system is coming down. Many will perish, but for the few I am to show HIS radient light and point the way to HIM.

I'm glad I posted this tread because I've been encouraged by many of the posts, but mostly because it has caused me to reflect on what the Lord has shown me when I keep my face set toward HIM.

In HIM,

Tina

*edit* sorry for the size! I can't correct it.


_________________
tina

 2007/9/20 22:52Profile





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