| Invisible vs Visible Church?|
I was wondering what the members here believe in regards to the True Church. Is everyone that gets saved, saved into the Church (Body of Christ)?
please provide scriptures for your reasoning. I'll give my opinion later. Thanks in advance for you input.
| 2004/5/16 22:08||Profile|
| Re: Invisible vs Visible Church?|
I guess I posted another thread no one is interested in.
Basically I was asking this because there are some believers who insist that there is more to it than us just being saved into the CHurch. There are some that believe those who of the Bride of Christ MUST also have a covenant to live according to the Word of God. Their example is when God's people made a covenant at Mt Sinai. I'm still studying this issue but wanted some input from the brethren here.
| 2004/5/19 1:35||Profile|
| Re: visible/invisible church|
I am sorry that no one responded. I am sure that it is not because we aren't interested in it. Honestly I read the post and didn't know what it meant. And I still don't know exactly what it means because I have never heard of this. :-(
I'm sure someone on here who is more "scholarly" than me may respond. I just wanted you to know that sometimes when we don't respond, msybe we don't know what to say(?) :-)
your sister in Christ, chanin
| 2004/5/19 8:15||Profile|
We are under the covenant described in Jeremiah 31:33 which is the New Covenant. It is a covenant based upon repentance (turning) from sin and self-- to God and righteousness. It is the work of the Holy Spirit that transforms us into a New Creature that is Born Again after the nature of God (John 3). It takes place when we respond to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit and cease to resist God's attempt to turn us back to Him (Acts 3:19,20). Therefore, the born again experience is God's working and is not of works lest any man should boast; but is a work of God UNTO good works (Ephesians 2:8, 9). It is made possible by the finished work of the Cross. Christ is the author of the entire work.
When a person is Born Again according to John 3:3 their desires change to be in accordance with Christ. This comes about as a result of what we know as regeneration. The Holy Spirit comes in to take up residence in the regenerated and they become the "Temple" of the Holy Spirit. The HOLY Spirit will do His work and it is that of bringing us into genuine holiness. The 'Old Man' is crucified with Christ and is to be put off with his sinful deeds- then, we continue to live by the faith in the New Man which is created to live in righteousness and true holiness by the power of the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:22-24).
As with any "New Born" there is an appetite. Truly born again persons have an appetite for the things of God. Christ said that His 'meat' was to do the will of the Father who sent Him. Our new nature also shares this appetite to know and to do His good pleasure. Born Again persons start out desiring the sincere 'milk' of the word and begin to grow thereby. This milk is the knowledge of God's will in the capacity that the person is able to know and do at that level of spiritual growth. It is not 'milk' or 'meat' until until is is done. The first simple command that anyone can do is be baptized. A born again person hears Christ's will for us to be baptized as was He and they immediately respond with an affirmative desire to obey. This is how we know that the seed 'remains in us because we keep His commandments.' They are not just a hearer of God's will- but their nature is to be a 'doer' of the work.
As you take the milk of the word and begin to exercise your senses to distinguish between good and evil- you begin growing in the knowledge of the things of God. Hebrews 5 tells us that is how we move from the 'milk' of God's word to the 'strong meat.'
This is why most Christians never grow and then have to be taught the most basic things over and over. They refuse to control their 5 senses to stop the wickedness from going into their hearts and corrupting them.
If you walk in the light of the knowledge of Christ as He is the light- the blood of Christ will cleanse you from all sin. This means to walk before the Lord with no conscious sin between you and God. You are growing in the knowledge of God- and are being perfected by the Holy Spirit as the process continues. This ultimately brings forth the fruit of the Spirit as described in Galatians 5. If the fruit is not present- we return to the message of repentance- as John the Baptist proclaimed that the axe is laid to the root of every tree that do not bring forth good fruit. When the fruit IS present- the fruit contains the seed that brings forth after its kind- which is more born again persons.
Thats a good start.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2004/5/19 9:37||Profile|
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
| Re: Invisible vs Visible Church?|
Nobody responded initially perhaps because theologically, different Christians could mean different things when they say "saved", "the True Church", "the Church", "covenant to live according to the Word."
For me, I would say that isolating the individual aspect of salvation from the community of faith is impossible. In the NT, when I am saved I am [i]in Christ[/i] (2 Cor. 5:17). But if I am [i]in Christ[/i], how can I not be a member of the Body (1 Cor. 1:2)?
| 2004/5/19 9:54||Profile|
Thanks for the feedback. Yeah I've been reading some literature from the Church of God of Prophecy. they believe that when you are saved, you only become part of the Kingdom of God. To be part of the Bride of Christ, they believe you must take a covenant to live in accordance to the Word of God. They compare it to the Nation of Israel when they made that covenant to live according to Moses Law that was just read to them at Mt Sinai.
Its an interesting suggestion. I do believe that a Christian has to make Jesus Lord of their life and that an inward confession should be made, to live according to the Word. Otherwise, how would you consider yourself HIS, unless you live for Him and obey Him? know what I mean?
THis church also teaches that the Bride is not just various believers from every denomination. They believe Jesus is coming for a physical CHurch Organization 'without spot or blemish'. Its similiar to what the Catholic Church teaches.
| 2004/6/2 16:39||Profile|
It is interesting that they chose Mt. Sinai for the illustration. Consider Galatians 4
21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding [b]from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves[/b]; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
Jesus said, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood (I Corinthians 11:25). There is no mention of a second covenant beyond that. How can God's kingdom be divided? Jesus warned about this in Matthew 12:25.
Paul also said, There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, [b]one faith[/b], one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all (Ephesians 4:4-6).
I'm not sure what your interest in this organization is. Is this an intellectual curiosity or do you want to join their ranks? I would suggest you put their literature to the side (if not in the trash) and focus your attention on the Bible. There is an old adage that applies to theology, "If it's new, it probably isn't true and if it's true, it probably isn't new". Based on your posting and reading the FAQs on their web page, they seem to be a legalistic organization focusing on the outward obedience to their favorite rules.
I would exhort you to flee from all wickedness!
| 2004/6/2 18:09||Profile|
no longer wish for this to be posted.
| 2004/6/2 18:23||Profile|