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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The End of the Rapture or the Rapture at the end

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IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Martyrs...

bro Dave Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
There is actually a new thing i just noticed that ponts to a pretrib rapture. The marters.
In the rapture the dead rise first. Now look at rev. The marters are in heaven BEFORE the marters from the tib. begin to show up. This is a MAJOR MAJOR hurdle for the post trib position. They place the dead being raised in the rapture AFTER both event in heaven. this is impossible.
Thanks David



actually bro Dave i believe you to be in error in regard to the Martyrs. Rev 6 says this:

[b]9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.[/b]

however bro if the rapture is post-trib, then every martyr which has died for Christ is revealed at His return. could it be bro, that the dead in Christ who rise first, are those who are already in Heaven and are now being revealed at His Return?included among these are the martyrs.

bro is Christ is coming to rapture us before the trib, then why is His Return at the end of the trib called the second coming? :-?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/9/20 17:30Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Dave Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
Ironman, you only "key" off of "delay" and "oil" there is a bigger picture draw here.Remember you take the post trib position so you must stay within the bounds of that view. And see if the parable fits. It doesent. Look at the second comming {with the white horses] and Jesus as a warring king. Now you have to make the 10 virgins fit that piccture[In post trib scenerio the rapture is at that same insttant.}
Thanks, David



ok, and in that view, the Marriage feast of the lamb doesn't require us to be there througout the trib because time doesn't pass the same way in Heaven as it does here. Paul says that in an instant we shall ALL be changed right? we don't need 7 yrs to get ready to come back here...Paul says we'll be changed in a moment...

bro so is the rapture a coming of Christ?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/9/20 17:36Profile
psalm1
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 Re: hold up bro David, don't put words in my mouth...

Ironman, I dissagree. But will you at least agree with the pre trib scenerio that the 10 virgins does fit absolutely perfect and the post trib doctrine faces a major if not fatal setback with the introduction of the 10 virgins and the wedding supper and the white horses? it is as if they[posttrib] built a car but now they discvered it wont run because they didnt figure in a gas tank?
I put in the riderless horses myself[take posttrib to itsown logical end]...you would have to have riderless horses

still love you....David

 2007/9/20 17:44Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

ironman, i disagree about the marters. the rapture would have to have happened for the events in heaven to fit.We see marters in "holding" in heaven and then the trib marters added to their numbers.but before that God says to them "your number is not completed" There is no 3rd group. In posttrib sceneerio everybody makes a u turn. So the marters would not fit the posttrib scenerio
David

 2007/9/20 17:55Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Ironman, i forgot the rev 21 question. Actually the bride is in rev19 now she is the wife. BEFORE she comes back to eartth! Eliminating any possibility of the groom being on a white horse because the bride and groom thing happened well ahead of the white horses. Which makes the rapture pretrib.
.....David

 2007/9/20 18:02Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro David:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
Ironman, I dissagree. But will you at least agree with the pre trib scenerio that the 10 virgins does fit absolutely perfect and the post trib doctrine faces a major if not fatal setback with the introduction of the 10 virgins and the wedding supper and the white horses? it is as if they[posttrib] built a car but now they discvered it wont run because they didnt figure in a gas tank?
I put in the riderless horses myself[take posttrib to itsown logical end]...you would have to have riderless horses

still love you....David



but bro i said that i believe that the marriage feast doesn't need for us to be there 7 yrs. Paul said we'd all be changed in the twinkling of an eye from corruptible to incorruptible. can't the Marriage feast need only an instant as we define an instant because as far as God is concerned, an instant can be as long as He needs it to be?Paul says that we are already in Heavenly Places with Jesus...

i concede that i see how the pre-trib idea can fit in with the parable of the virgins.

i don't think that one would have to have riderless horses in the post-trib scenario. since the whole transformation and so on can occur in an instant...

i still have a question though. how do you reconcile the rapture as being pre-trib with the fact that many people will be saved during the trib, some of which will be alive at Christ's second coming which are also a part of the bride of Christ but didn't get raptured?

Also is the rapture a coming of Christ?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.



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Farai Bamu

 2007/9/20 18:26Profile
IRONMAN
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 Re:

bro David:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
ironman, i disagree about the marters. the rapture would have to have happened for the events in heaven to fit.We see marters in "holding" in heaven and then the trib marters added to their numbers.but before that God says to them "your number is not completed" There is no 3rd group. In posttrib sceneerio everybody makes a u turn. So the marters would not fit the posttrib scenerio
David



the martyrs have been in heaven since the resurrection of Jesus, that is those from Abel to john bapist. from Jesus' resurrection on, the Martyrs go straight to Heaven so those which John sees are as many as have been killed up to that point. That the number isn't complete means that they await for the ones who will die during the trib. what third group are you talking about? :-?

the post trib does have everyone making a u-turn, so does the pre-trib because in both cases, you have saints being caught up to Jesus and then returning with Him. Now in the post trib, like i said, Paul says that in an instant we shall all be changed, not 7 yrs, an instant, so if the changing is to occur as He descends like Paul says here:

from 2 Thessalonians 2

[b]1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, F4 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [/b]

this seems to imply the coming of Christ isn't a Secret. if all the true believers are taken away, who cares coz only unbelievers remain.

[b]3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.[/b]

what is the great falling away? why does Paul say that the gathering of us to Him must be preceded by the great falling away and then the revelation of the man of sin?we know this happens at the midpoint of the trib.

[b]5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth F5 that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming[/b]

Paul again says the coming of our Lord is going to be quite plain for all to see, do you think the rapture is then not a coming of our Lord because the second coming of Him has to do with His coming in triumph to smash the enemy.

if the rapture is the first resurrection, howcome the first mention of the first resurrection is after the trib in Rev 20? :-?

help me understand bro

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/9/20 18:42Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Quote:

psalm1 wrote:
Ironman, i forgot the rev 21 question. Actually the bride is in rev19 now she is the wife. BEFORE she comes back to eartth! Eliminating any possibility of the groom being on a white horse because the bride and groom thing happened well ahead of the white horses. Which makes the rapture pretrib.
.....David



not well ahead...just ahead ;-) hence i believe the transformation of 1 corinthians in the twinkling of an eye... ;-)

Grace and Peace are ours in JEsus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/9/20 18:43Profile





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