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 Re:

Quote:
I am not "offended" by your post. Rather, I felt frustrated by your choice of wording. The problem with your post was not that you believe that the teaching of a "pre-trib rapture" is a lie." The problem that I see is that you refrained from distinguishing your belief (or assumption) from truth. You have left no room for error. It seems that you feel 100% certain of something that, with our limited eschatology, cannot be completely determined by Scripture.

Do you see the problem with this? You have willfully criticized a sincere doctrinal belief that is accepted by many believers around the globe. You not only described the belief as "incorrect," but you have labeled it a "LIE." This makes the people that preach it "LIARS," and those who believe it "FOOLS."



CCChhhrrriiisss, I've watched many of the debates on this forum and being a "News and Current Events" type - have watched you all debate issues, not just political. On every thread, I've seen strong disagreements being exchanged and on most all - even those that you were involved in - there were the "this is not true - this is 'fiction' - this is falsehood" type replies. I've noticed where each person has very strong feelings on certain topics, including yourself.
If I say that a doctrine is not true - I am saying what is being said on most threads here.
To say that something is not true - is to say it is a lie. [Websters]
Even on "political" threads, I've read these "that's not true" replies.

HAVE I called anyone a "LIAR or FOOL" ??

You are baiting and bringing in antagonism and riling this subject up by straining over one three lettered word that defines a false belief - that the N.T. Authors themselves used.
1Jn 2:21 "I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth." Rom 1:25 "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." 1Jn
[b] [concerning the antichrist - Paul writes - >]2Th 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"[/b] 1Jn 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and [b]do[/b] not the truth"

If one believes OSAS is a lie, a falsehood, fiction, false doctrine, that is their right here. Or vice versa.
Until I call someone a LIAR OR FOOL - you should not Insinuate and take a potentially good thread off into these "personal" problems.

If one believes that is doctrine is "NOT TRUE" - what is a synonym for "Not True" ?

You have said some things about post-trib that can be interpreted that the belief is "not true" in some of your paragraphs above. "Not true" = a lie in God's Word.

The thread had just begun and we haven't had the chance to post the Scripture we believe sheds light on when HE said HE would "gather" His Elect, but off it went into the - personal and splitting hairs on how some term "fiction - falsehood - not correct teaching - not Scriptural doctrines" when my old Webster's says that I can use a three lettered word for all of the above - 'lie'.

God's Word is either taught in Truth or it is a lie. No gray areas. Paul said, "I would not have you ignorant".
In the Spiritual - there are no Gray areas. It is either Truth or a lie. That is N.T. language.
I do not nick-pick with much brother -- but when it comes to people believing they won't be here when Antichrist is revealed nor go through the greatest calamities this world has ever seen - then Yes, out of LOVE alone - I get nick-picky, to save people from that Delusion Paul mentions above.

When I and whomever else is freed up from all of these "personals" - we will be freed to post [u]Scripture[/u].
Mid-Trib or Pre-Wrath don't bother me - because at the least, they know that the Lord told us to "watch - and count the number of the beast" and so on - but Pre-Trib is the only belief that does not believe we need to do so. They do not feel that they will have to avoid the mark. They believe they will be Gone when antichrist rules.
You betcha I worry about that for their sakes - and not to just prove I'm "right" on an "irrelevant" or non-consequential teaching.

 2007/9/18 14:47









 Re: Some ECFs

[b][u]Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165)[/b][/u]

"Two advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other,[b] in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians[/b], ... Now it is evident that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more do others and in larger numbers become faithful, and worshippers of God through the name of Jesus." [Dialog with Trypho, CX]

[u][b]Irenaeus: Discipled by Polycarp who was discipled by John. (AD. 120-202)[/u][/b]
"Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], [b]when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against[/b]. These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, [b][u]let them await[/u], in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation. ... It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy, than to be making surmises[/b], and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. ... But he indicates the number of the name now, that [b]when this "man" comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: ... But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, [u]HE will reign for three years and six months[/u], and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this "man" and those who follow "him" into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest[/b], the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." [Irenaeus: Against Heresies, Book V, XXX]

" an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God; and that, although a mere slave, he wishes himself to be proclaimed as a king. For he being endued with all the power of the devil, shall come, not as a righteous king, nor a legitimate king in subjection to God, but an impious, unjust, and lawless 'one'; as an apostate, iniquitous, and murderous, as a robber, concentrating in himself satanic apostasy, and seeking aside idols to persuade that he himself is God raising up himself as the only idol, having in himself the multifarious errors of the other idols. This he does, in order that they who do worship the devil by means of many abominations, may serve himself by this one idol, of whom the apostle thus speaks in the second Epistle to the Thessalonians."

"And there is therefore in this beast, when "HE"[ ( Antichrist ) comes, a recapitulation made of all sorts of iniquity and of every deceit, in order that all apostate power, flowing into and being shut up in him, may be sent into the furnace of fire...since he sums up in his own person all the commixture of wickedness which took place previous to the deluge, due to the apostasy of the angels."

"[b]In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times[/b], and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise...These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords, and King of kings...And they (Ten Kings) shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” [Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1]

"[b]But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes 'we' may avoid him, being aware of who he is:[/b]...But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, [u]he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple in Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that “many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” [Against Heresies V, XXX, 2, 4]

"For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken [b]in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of the Antichrist, and the destruction of nations under his rule[/b]; in (the times of) which (resurrection) the righteous shall reign on the earth...and those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and [b]who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked 'one' (Antichrist).[/b]" [Against Heresies V, XXXV, 1]

[b]Hippolytus: Bishop of Portus, was a disciple of Irenaeus who was discipled by Polycarp who was discipled from John.(AD. 170-236) [/b]

"[b]As these things, then, are in the future[/b], and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander’s time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of [b]the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst[/b]; the stone that smites the earth and brings judgment upon the world was Christ." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 27,28]

[b] It is proper that we take the Holy Scriptures themselves in hand, and find out from them what, and of what manner, the coming of Antichrist is; on what occasion and at what time that impious one shall be revealed; and whence and from what tribe (he shall come); and what his name is, which is indicated by the number in Scripture; and how he shall work error among the people, gathering them from the ends of the earth; and (how) he shall stir up tribulation and persecution against the saints; and how he shall glorify himself as God; and what his end shall be; and how the sudden appearing of the Lord shall be revealed from heaven; and what the conflagration of the whole world shall be; and what the glorious and heavenly kingdom of the saints is to be, when they reign together with Christ; and what the punishment of the wicked by fire...With respect to his name, it is not in our power to explain it exactly, as the blessed John understood it and was instructed about it, but only to give a conjectural account of it; for when he appears, the blessed one will show us what we seek to know... Wherefore we ought neither to give it out as if this were certainly his name, nor again ignore the fact that he may not otherwise be designated. But having the mystery of God in our heart, we ought in fear to keep faithfully what has been told us by blessed prophets, in order that when those things come to pass, we may be prepared for them, and not be deceived. For when the times advance, he too, of whom these things are said, will be manifest...Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus, "And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, ... And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent”...That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church.... These things then, being come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope." [Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 5, 50, 60, 61, 64][/b]

"on account of his tyranny and violence. For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion; Christ is a king, so Antichrist is also a king. The Savior was manifested as a lamb; so he too in like manner, will appear as a lamb, though within he is a wolf. The Savior came into the world in the circumcision, and he will come in the same manner. The Lord sent apostles among all the nations, and he in like manner will send false apostles. The Savior gathered together the sheep that were scattered abroad, and he in like manner will bring together a people that is scattered abroad. The Lord gave a seal to those who believed on Him; and he will give one in like manner. The Savior appeared in the form of man, and he too will come in the form of a man. The Savior raised up and showed His holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem."

"He ( Antichrist )will be harsh, severe, passionate, wrathful, terrible, inconstant, dread, morose, hateful, abominable, savage, vengeful, iniquitous. And, bent on casting the whole race of men into the pit of perdition, he will multiply false signs."[/u]

“When the times are fulfilled, and the ten horns spring from the beast in the last (times), then Antichrist will appear among them. [b]When he makes war against the saints, and persecutes them, then may we expect the manifestation of the Lord from heaven.[/b] [Fragments from Commentaries, II, 7]

"shall be sent through every city and country to destroy the faithful; and the saints shall travel from the west to the east, and shall be driven in persecution from the east to the south, while others shall conceal themselves in the mountains and caves; and the abomination shall war against them everywhere, and shall cut them off by the sea and by land by his decree, and shall endeavor by every means to destroy them out of the world; and they shall not be able any longer to sell their own property, nor to buy from strangers, unless one keeps and carries with him the name of the beast, or bears its mark upon his forehead. For then they shall all be driven out from place to place, and dragged from their own homes and haled into prison, and punished with all manner of punishment, and cast out from the whole world." These shall awake to everlasting life."

[b][u]Lactantius (260-330)[/b][/u]

"He ( Antichrist ) shall harass the word with an intolerable rule; shall mingle things divine and human; shall contrive things impious to relate, and detestable; shall meditate new designs in his breast, that he may establish the government for himself; he will change the laws, and appoint his own; he ( Antichrist )will contaminate, plunder, spoil, and put to death."

[u][b]Tertullian (c. 160 - 225) [/b][/u]

“...that the city of fornication may receive from the ten kings its deserved doom, and [b]that the beast Antichrist, with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God[/b]...Since, then, the Scriptures both indicate the stages of the last times, and concentrate on [b]the harvest of the Christian hope in the very end of the world ...Now the privilege of this favor (the resurrection) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death, which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints...[/b]” [On the Resurrection of the Flesh, XXV, 7 and XLI]
___________________________________
Polycarp-Pupil of John the Apostle (AD. 70-156)

THE EPISTLE OF POLYCARP TO THE PHILIPPIANS
CHAPTER VI.--THE DUTIES OF PRESBYTERS AND OTHERS
"we must all appear at the judgment-seat of Christ, and must every one give an account of himself." Let us then serve Him in fear, and with all reverence, even as He Himself HAS COMMANDED US, AND AS THE APOSTLES WHO PREACHED THE GOSPEL UNTO US, and the prophets who proclaimed beforehand the coming of the Lord [have alike taught us]."


CHAPTER II.--AN EXHORTATION TO VIRTUE
"But He who raised Him up from the dead WILL raise up us also"

PAPIAS-Pupil of John the Apostle (AD. 70-155)

FRAGMENTS OF PAPIAS FROM THE EXPOSITION OF THE ORACLES OF THE LORD. V.
"those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven SHALL go there, others SHALL enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others SHALL possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour WILL BE seen, according as they SHALL BE worthy who see Him."

VI.

"there WILL BE a millennium AFTER the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ WILL BE established on this earth"

IGNATIUS-Pupil of John the Apostle (AD. 67-110)


THE EPISTLE OF IGNATIUS TO THE TRALLIANS
CHAPTER IX
"He was also truly raised from the dead, His Father quickening Him, even as after the same manner His Father WILL SO raise up us who believe in Him by Christ Jesus"

CHAPTER I.--DESIRE OF IGNATIUS FOR MARTYRDOM.

"Ignatius, the disciple of John the apostle, a man in all respects of an apostolic character, governed the Church of the Antiochians with great care, having with difficulty escaped the former storms of the many persecutions under Domitian"

Irenaeus-Student of John the Apostles's pupil Polycarp (AD. 120-202)


AGAINST HERESIES, BOOK V, XXX
"But he indicates the number of the name now, that WHEN this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: ..But when this Antichrist SHALL HAVE devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord WILL COME from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom"

AGAINST HERESIES, BOOK V, XXVI, 1

"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what SHALL HAPPEN IN THE LAST TIMES, and concerning the ten kings WHO SHALL THEN arise, ... These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. THESE SHALL make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb SHALL OVERCOME them, because He is the Lord of lords, and King of kings. ... And THEY SHALL lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and SHALL GIVE their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight. AFTER THAT THEY SHALL be destroyed by the coming of our Lord."

AGAINST HERESIES, BOOK V, XXXV, 1

"For ALL these and other words were UNQUESTIONABLY SPOKEN IN REFERENCE TO THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST, WHICH TAKES PLACE AFTER the coming of Antichrist, AND the destruction of all nations under his rule; IN [the times of] WHICH [resurrection] THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL reign on the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they SHALL become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and SHALL enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and those whom the Lord SHALL FIND IN THE FLESH, AWAITING HIM from heaven, and WHO HAVE suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one."

Hippolytus-Student of Iranaeus of the direct teaching lineage of John (AD. 170-236)


TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, 5
"It is proper that we take the Holy Scriptures themselves in hand, and find out from them what, and of what manner, THE COMING of Antichrist is; ON WHAT OCCASION AND AT WHAT TIME that impious one shall be revealed; and whence and from what tribe (he shall come); and what his name is, which is indicated by the number in Scripture; and how he SHALL WORK error among the people, gathering them from the ends of the earth; and (how) he SHALL stir up tribulation and persecution against the saints; and how he SHALL glorify himself as God; and what his end SHALL BE; and how the sudden appearing of the Lord SHALL BE revealed from heaven; and what the conflagration of the whole world SHALL BE; and what the glorious and heavenly kingdom of the saints IS TO BE, when they reign together with Christ; and what the punishment of the wicked by fire."

TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, 27,28

"As THESE THINGS, then, ARE IN THE FUTURE, and as the ten toes of the image are equivalent to (so many) democracies, and the ten horns of the fourth beast are distributed over ten kingdoms, let us look at the subject a little more closely, and consider these matters as in the clear light of a personal survey. The golden head of the image and the lioness denoted the Babylonians; the shoulders and arms of silver, and the bear, represented the Persians and Medes; the belly and thighs of brass, and the leopard, meant the Greeks, who held the sovereignty from Alexander's time; the legs of iron, and the beast dreadful and terrible, expressed the Romans, who hold the sovereignty at present; the toes of the feet which were part clay and part iron, and the ten horns, were emblems of the kingdoms that are yet to rise; the other little horn that grows up among them meant the Antichrist in their midst"

TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, 27,28


"With respect to his name, it is not in our power to explain it exactly, as the blessed John understood it and was instructed about it, but only to give a conjectural account of it; for when he appears, the blessed one will show us what we seek to know. ... Wherefore we ought neither to give it out as if this were certainly his name, nor again ignore the fact that he may not otherwise be designated. But having the mystery of God in our heart, we ought in fear to keep faithfully what has been told us by blessed prophets, in order that WHEN THOSE THINGS COME TO PASS, we may be prepared for them, and not be deceived. FOR WHEN THE TIMES ADVANCE, he too, of whom these things are said, will be manifest."

TREATISE ON CHRIST AND ANTICHRIST, 60, 61, 64

"Now concerning the tribulation of the persecution WHICH IS to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus, "And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, ... And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." That refers to the one thousand two hundred and threescore days (the half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the Church.... These things then, being come to pass, beloved, and the one week being divided into two parts, and the abomination of desolation being manifested then, and the two prophets and forerunners of the Lord having finished their course, and the whole world finally approaching the consummation, what remains but the coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ from heaven, for whom we have looked in hope."

FRAGMENTS FROM COMMENTARIES, II, 7

"WHEN THE TIMES ARE FULFILLED, and the ten horns spring from the beast in the last (times), then Antichrist WILL APPEAR among them. WHEN HE MAKES war against the saints, and persecutes them, THEN MAY WE EXPECT the manifestation of the Lord from heaven."

 2007/9/18 15:13
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro David
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

but bro David i have no qualms with the need for the bride to be at the marriage feast. however Heaven is not a place like earth where time as we know it elapses. The marriage feast doesn't require us to have been in heaven for a period of time and then return, all that can be done in the twinkling of an eye...as He returns.

at the end of the day bro, if you're right, we have nothing to worry about and i can get raptured too, if you're wrong however, then we're in for an interesting time here...have you ever wondered what you would do if you found yourself here in those days? would you fall away from the faith? you haven't addressed how it could be that the multitude in heaven which JOhn saw, which is all the saints from the first to the last is in heaven already while the trib is going on...

bro Rahman put up this thread which i think is worth considering if you are a pre-tribber. being a post tribber is to me a safe bet since we won't be surprised if we find ourselves in the teeth of persecution but if you're a pre-tribber, that may bring some problems....

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=18758&forum=36&3]what if you are found in the tribulation?[/url]

either way God's Grace is sufficient in our out of the trib.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/9/18 15:21Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Noah and the Ark

bro David

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

the example of Noah is one in which man was preserved through Judgment. Noah was in the Ark not whisked away somewhere where he didn't hear the screams of those who were drowining. Noah wasn't caught up to Heaven during the flood, i believe if he had, that would have been a more apt prefiguring of the pre-trib rapture. Jesus also prayed that we would not be taken out of the world but kept from the evil one, that He said also that we pray we be counted worth to escape the suffering isn't a reference to being saved from suffering. The fire is coming for those who are against Christ and so to be counted worthy of escaping that is to remain in Christ.

the bride is special, but remember the Groom endured much suffering for her and in order to share in His Glorification, we are called to share in His Sufferings also. We too look for His return, desperately so and strive to be clean for when He comes back so don't assume (if you have thought this) that we who are pre-tribbers aren't waiting or looking for His return.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/9/18 15:31Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hi HE_Reigns...

Quote:
[color=660000]You are baiting and bringing in antagonism and riling this subject up by straining over one three lettered word that defines a false belief - that the N.T. Authors themselves used.
1Jn 2:21 "I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth." Rom 1:25 "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen." 1Jn
[concerning the antichrist - Paul writes - >]2Th 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" 1Jn 1:6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth"

If one believes OSAS is a lie, a falsehood, fiction, false doctrine, that is their right here. Or vice versa.
Until I call someone a LIAR OR FOOL - you should not Insinuate and take a potentially good thread off into these "personal" problems.

If one believes that is doctrine is "NOT TRUE" - what is a synonym for "Not True" ?[/color]

The problem with your post is that you have not used the words "I BELIEVE," "IT IS MY OPINION," or even "BECAUSE THE SCRIPTURES SAY THIS, I AM INCLINED TO BELIEVE..." Instead, you simply referred to the beliefs of many people as "[b]A [u]LIE[/u][/b]." Yes, the connotation of that "[i]three letter word[/i]" means the world of difference. You chose that word (which in itself implies "[i]a deliberate intention to deceive[/i]") instead of stating the more accurate belief that the message is merely [i]incorrect[/i] (according to what you believe the Word says about this matter). As believers, we need to be extremely careful (and prayerful) about what we say (or write). We are being watched of all men. What an awesome responsibility befalls us!

Do we really need to have thread after thread of unproductive arguments about matters of little spiritual consequence? I am not saying that this topic (or thread) is inconsequentual. But, using your own anecdote, do we need to have post after post of "[i]Your belief is a LIE...[/i] and [i]No, [u]YOUR[/u] belief is a LIE[/i]...etc..."?!? Why can't we simply discuss the issue without raising the issue of deception? Why can't we peacefully understand that there are many well-meaning, earnest believers who simply disagree with our own conclusion? Still, we feel the need to "warn" such believers of the dire consequences of believing a "lie." If someone is going to fall away because of their beliefs regarding the timing of the Lord's return -- they probably have a problem far more problematic than whether or not they are correct in regards to the timing.

In regards to my posts (including those of a spiritual, historical, political or governmental nature), I am aware that I typically call into question assumptions, opinions and conclusions that are expressed as concrete fact. By failing to distinguish between what is indisputable fact from what is merely speculation or conclusion, our credibility suffers. This is the problem with many Christians who loudly proclaim "[i]the truth[/i]." We often stray from proclaiming pure [i]truth[/i] by integrating it with our own [i]opinions[/i] or [i]conclusions[/i]. The world often takes note of this. Christians are not only mocked for their [i]ignorance[/i] -- but for the [i]imbecile[/i] cognitive mannerisms that we often display. Remember those fallacies of reason? We often claim [i]God told me...[/i] when it is merely the result of our [i]figuring something out[/i] or arriving to a [i]conclusion[/i] on a matter based upon the evidence that we've seen.

I don't mean to [i]offend[/i] you (or anyone) in regards to their posts. I actually don't believe that you MEANT to claim that the teaching of a "pre-trib" rapture is a "LIE." I believe that you meant to say that you believe that the concept is incorrect or inaccurate -- and that most adherents of such views are sincerely [i]incorrect[/i] (without deceptive intent).

As for the belief in a pre-trib rapture, I don't base my faith on the timing of the Lord's return. My faith is based upon the relationship that I have with the Lord. All that I am certain about concerning the Lord's return, from the Scriptures, is that He will return. As for the timing, "[i]It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power[/i]" (Acts 1:7). While I will continuously look for the Lord's return, I can faithfully walk with Him until (and throughout) those events. If the Lord chooses to "rapture" us before He pours out His wrath -- Hallelujah! If the Lord chooses to "protect us" while He pours out His wrath -- Hallelujah! And if the Lord allows us to suffer as His wrath is poured out upon the entire Earth -- Hallelujah! Either way -- WE WIN IN CHRIST!

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2007/9/18 16:00Profile









 Re: 2Th 2:2-4

[b]2Th 2:2-4 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
___________________________________________

Is The Pretribber In Danger Of Accepting A New Age Christ? [/b]

In "Jerome's Apology In Answer To Rufinus--Book III" (AD 402) from the writings of the early Church fathers, Jerome wrote,

"Yet it behoves us to know that the enemy is wont to counterfeit this salutary advent of Christ with cunning fraud in order to deceive the faithful, and in the place of the Son of Man, Who is looked for as coming in the majesty of His Father, to prepare the Son of Perdition with prodigies and lying signs, that instead of Christ he may introduce Antichrist into the world; of whom the Lord Himself warned the Jews beforehand in the Gospels, "Because I am come in My Father's Name, and ye received Me not, another will come in his own name, and him ye will receive." And again, "When ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, standing in the holy place, let him that readeth understand." Daniel, therefore, in his visions speaks very fully and amply of the coming of that delusion: but it is not worth while to cite instances, for we have enlarged enough already; we therefore refer any one who may wish to know more concerning these matters to the visions themselves. The Apostle also himself says, "Let no than deceive you by any means, for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the Son of Perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above everything that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as though himself were God." And soon afterwards, "Then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders." And again, shortly afterwards, "And therefore the Lord shall send unto them strong delusion, that they may believe a lie, that all may be judged who have not believed the truth."' For this reason, therefore, is this "delusion" foretold unto us by the words of Prophets, Evangelists, and Apostles, lest any one should mistake the coming of Antichrist for the coming of Christ. But as the Lord Himself says, "When they shall say unto you, lo, here is Christ, or lo, He is there, believe it not. For many false Christs and false prophets shall come and shall seduce many." But let us see how He hath pointed out the judgment of the true Christ: "As the lightning shineth from the east unto the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be."

Jerome warned of a coming of the antichrist being mistaken for the coming of Christ. Today many debate whether the Pretribulation doctrine is dangerous, that whether or not Christians could be deceived into following this false Christ. I believe it is, because


It tells Christians to look for Christ to come at a time when He will not come, opening the door to a false "Christ" to be followed

It tells Christians that when this "Christ" comes, he will take them somewhere by means of a spiritual experience
The Pretrib belief in immanency - that there is nothing else to be fulfilled before Jesus comes - opens the door for this deception because He can now come at any time, even today or tomorrow. In Posttribulationism, Christ can only be immanent when we reach the end of the tribulation period when the events of the sixth seal will take place.

Some Pretribbers show the uncertainty of their belief in the doctrine by saying that if Jesus does not come just before or at the inception of the Tribulation, they wouldn't be deceived. But, I say, some do not know the power of deception. They've already fallen for a false doctrine, the seeds of which came from spirits not of God. Many in the Church today have fallen for the current apostasy after centuries of being warned that such an event will definitely happen. Deception is a very possible thing in the Church, especially in this day and age. Is there such a strong deception ahead that Christians will fall for a false "Christ" coming at a different time? I believe the strong possibility is there. In spite of the tremendous amount of evidence coming forth regarding Ribera, Lacunza, Macdonald, Irving, Kelly and Darby, not to mention the Pretribbers being presented excellent Scriptural evidence there is no Pretrib rapture, the vast majority of Pretribulationists refuse to turn from their error. In fact, it seems any debate only hardens their heart all the more.

In Jesus' own description of His overwhelmingly visible parousia that occurs "immediately after the tribulation," He warned of deceit several times:

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Note - these are warnings from the Lord Himself against DECEIT: "Take heed," "shall deceive many," and "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect . . . Behold, I have told you before . . . believe it not." Jesus wasn't just blowing off steam. He was the Son delivering a message of warning and danger from His heavenly Father concerning the culmination of all that God had been doing since time began.

Of special interest is Jesus' statement concerning false prophets in verses 10 and 11, where the prophets instigate an apparently successful apostasy, turning many from the faith. As a result, love among God's people grows cold, and is replaced by hate. Whenever true and deceptive messages are mixed, there is division resulting in visible apostasy and a change in ultimate vision. All that is needed to start this process is one small change in the truth. From then on, it is just a matter of letting the weed grow to fruition.

The devil's goal is unity in the world and apostasy in the Church, for the purpose of leading the Church into that world through spiritual deception to a false Christ. How deep can such deception go? We believe it is this deep: the devil has most likely set up the coming of a false Christ to mimic the parousia anticipated in pretribulationism (and other isms, except posttribulationism - I will deal only with pretribulationism here). Heirs to the belief that only Christians will see Jesus' coming for the Church before the tribulation, either visibly or invisibly, pretribbers are most likely one of the targets for the New Age occult (meaning "secret") "leap into the heavens" I will now describe.

In the prologue of his book, "Inside The New Age Nightmare" (pp.89-91), Randall Baer writes that he was involved in Eastern mysticism since his teenage years, eventually becoming an international New Age teacher on the national teaching circuit. The reason he wrote this book was because he became a Christian. He said "I want you to know exactly what the New Age Movement is about."

Baer discusses two major schools of New Age thought concerning humanity:


The first is transformational, in which all men reach a state of consciousness that enables them to see that heaven has been here on earth all the time, and they finally reach a point where they can see it.

[b]Edit: Please read: http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/leonardsweet.htm [/b]

The second school of thought, labeled the "Quantum Leap of Consciousness," has a strong similarity to Pretribulationism. This Quantum Leap into the heavens is typified in Baer's quote from a New Age Center's literature:

"We are on the brink of a new age, a whole new world. In the twinkling of an eye, mankind's awareness, our collective consciousness, is going to make an instantaneous quantum leap into the heavens. Everything will change in a flash of divine Light. Get ready. Your heavenly heritage awaits. Come on in; the water's fine . . . He who hesitates is lost . . . . He who chooses life is found" (From promotional material from "The Center for New Age Light.")

Terminology borrowed from scripture, no doubt. Baer sums up the above quote with the statement that some factions of the New Age believe that "Earth and humanity will literally leap in a flash of light into the heavens above."

He goes on to say that this Quantum Leap model "is directly tied to some form of divine intervention. Though there are a rich variety of concepts about the nature and form of this divine intervention, essentially a sovereign and omnipotent celestial force is said to deliver Earth into the heavens above. Various groups attribute this intervention to various sources."

Baer closes this section with the statement that the Quantum Leap view contains within itself predominant themes that "lie much more towards mediumship, spiritism, witchcraft, psychic powers, and sorceries in myriad shapes and forms." He attributes increased levels of demonic forces in the world today to this branch of the New Age belief system.

The New Age has long expected such an experience of change, promoted through New Age philosophers such as Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (Omega Point) and Matthew Fox's Creation Spirituality (Quantum Leap).

Could Christians be deceived to the point of accepting the coming of "a [supposed] sovereign and omnipotent celestial force" masquerading as Christ? I believe the seeds of such an acceptance are viable. Hints of the "mediumship, spiritism, witchcraft, psychic powers, and sorceries in myriad shapes and forms" are evident in the origins of the pretribulation doctrine. For instance, we've already looked at Margaret Macdonald's spiritistic vision concerning the second coming which was delivered by a spirit not of God, and it draws very close to what some New Agers describe as "The Second Coming.".

So, is there a hint of evidence that Christians can be deceived? Look at the apostasy. Look at the phenomena from New Age spirits that invaded the Church that were "transformed" into "Christian" experiences. Look at the appearances of "Jesus" in meetings, even in fire at times. People are seeing "Him" in visions, and also "angels" that actually minister to people. We know the visions and promises of Benny Hinn regarding "Christ" appearing in meetings. We are already hearing of "mediumship, spiritism, witchcraft, psychic powers, and sorceries in myriad shapes and forms" being taken as Christian practices and events on which the whole agenda of the modern day "Church" hinges. Put these together with seeing "Jesus" and "angels" in the spirit in so many forms and fashions, and see the strong possibility that the stage is being set for a deceptive "Second Coming of Christ" at a time foreign to Scripture, i.e., the Pretibulaiton doctrine. Even the language of the "revival" is basic Barbara Marx Hubbard doctrine, who also believes in a Quantum Leap where man changes from Homo Sapien to Homo Universalis (corporate, universal human). If you don't believe me, look at the comparisons I have done between New Age and the "revival" at PART IV: Laughing: Deeper Realities and Part Five: The Preparation Of The Corporate Child. If Irving bought into Macdonald's vision to use the idea of it in his "secret coming" and brought that spirit into the Church, why do we believe Pretribbers when they say they won't be deceived if their is a false "rapture"? If the "revival" brought the New Age agenda into the Church - lock, stock and barrel - as described in the two files I referenced above, why do we think Pretribbers won't buy into a false New Age experience of a "rapture"? These are two major deceptions that have deeply deceived people who responded to the gospel at one time. What in heavens name do we think will stop the deception short of a fake rapture before the tribulation?

I don't know how the devil will work his deceitful "leap into the heavens" in a counterfeit coming of "Christ" as far as the Christian is concerned, but we know he will. Deceptions are rampant now, and it is not even logical to think that the adversary would ignore the premier event of our time and work his deceptions around it. I am basically saying "let the buyer beware" because there is already a false "Christ" appearing in the "Church" with signs and wonders, and some Christians have fallen and are falling for it. We've drained our energies warning people about Pretribulationism and a false revival, but to what avail? And yet we give the Pretribulationist the benefit of the doubt that he won't be deceived when the culmination of its promised rapture arrives. We call the "revival" and the apostasy the delusion God has sent, and I am believing more and more that pretribulationism is a part of that.
http://www.velocity.net/~edju/Pretrib8.htm

 2007/9/18 16:24
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re: Noah and the Ark

ironman, have you read in revelation where it says there was silence in heaven for about 30 min.? time can be described as one moment to the next.
Also I believe the picture of noah and the ark does resemble the rapture picture.noah calls in those that belong to him and it says the door was shut. Just like the 10 virgins the door also was shut. maybe the clawing you refer to is similar to the5 foolish virgins being shut out. In anycase The two pictures coincide dramatically noah and his family safe in the ark and Jesus and his raptured family safe in heaven. Noah and his family above the wrath of God and Jesus and his family above the wrath of God.
I can assure you there will be a pretrib rapture the scripture bears witness to it.
Consider the scorpions that only sting the ones NOT marked in their foreheads. The marked ones are Jews not christians. That means God releases torment and agony on his own!
Also if I believe in a pre trib rapture why would I have a problem with the multitude in heaven? The 5 foolish virgins dont go with the bride and groom remember they stay behind.
Almost all christians are martered by antichrist. Where else would they be but heaven? Also there is no point in a post trib rapture, The saints are almost all martered and already in heaven and the wimpy ones that hole up in caves and such probably did a peter and denied him to save their own necks. Read heb. 11 it says some refused freedom and were also killed so to have a better resurection. Post trib has Jesus rapturing almost nobody ,jumping on riderless horses ,missing the marriage supper and doing a u turn back to earth
Thanks, David

 2007/9/18 16:30Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

He reigns, by virtue of the brides devotion to her groom, even in the natural a bride could not be fooled by a substitute. The first kiss would find him out. The bride Cannot be fooled.
There is one comming on a white horse[antichrist] But he is against christ. Only nominal christians with NO discern ment will be dupped.
Look at the cults today.[antichrist] They can talk nonstop but if you ask them about Jesus they are exposed.
You speak of pre- trib as dangerous and yet it was the 5 foolish virgins that were left behind. Not those that were ready for their Lord.
I will say Jesus come quickly and look for him. It is those left behind that must have some other prayer. .....Thay await the appearing of antichrist.
Look at watctower cult they knock on my door and i do a bible study with them. they are dupped. They play follow the lleader. You can show them that they have a changed and perverted bible. It makes no diff. to them. many are ex-christians ...go figure. The point is antichrist does not need post or pre doctrine to suck you in
....Just gullable,ignorant,naieve,people will follow the leader.....to their demise
when you say quantum leap are you also referring to the post trib handling of the marrige supper the 10 virgins, and the white horses?.....Sorry just couldnt resist...I repent

thanks,David

 2007/9/18 17:00Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

  HALF AN HOUR IN HEAVEN...AND A BETTER RESURRECTION!

bro David
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

i'm glad you brought up that scripture, i figured you would. Where else is there a description of time elapsing in this way in Heaven in the scriptures? by the way, antichrist is in opposition to Christ yes however in the sense that he is a false parallel.

Quote:
Also I believe the picture of noah and the ark does resemble the rapture picture.noah calls in those that belong to him and it says the door was shut. Just like the 10 virgins the door also was shut. maybe the clawing you refer to is similar to the5 foolish virgins being shut out. In anycase The two pictures coincide dramatically noah and his family safe in the ark and Jesus and his raptured family safe in heaven. Noah and his family above the wrath of God and Jesus and his family above the wrath of God.



i don't know bro...it just doesn't seem to sit right in my spirit for some reason, it never has...


Quote:
Consider the scorpions that only sting the ones NOT marked in their foreheads. The marked ones are Jews not christians.



actually, there are 2 groups of 144000 which are marked, some from the 12 tribes of Israel(Rev 7) and the other group from among men (rev 14), that is gentiles...These ones in Rev 14 follow the LAMB, the Lamb we know is Jesus and so if one follows Jesus, then he is a Christian. so these are Christians in the tribulation. that Jews are sealed in Rev 7 speak of them coming to Salvation in Jesus. insamuch as Salvation goes, all must become Christian or perish, one can't be saved because he/she is a Jew. also if God didn't spare Israel which is the apple of His eye, what makes you think we will be spared suffering? also Peter says that Judgment begins at the house of the Lord so if the tribulation comes upon those who have rejected Him, we will have to be the first ones to suffer Judgment because we are the ones who bear the standard before the rest of the world can be Judged. so either way Judgment is coming at us trib or not.

Quote:
Also if I believe in a pre trib rapture why would I have a problem with the multitude in heaven?



well the multitude is every saint from the first to the last including the ones from the tribulation, Jews, Gentiles, the whole lot in heaven in the Midst of the trib...if the rapture is pre-trib, then that excludes the ones from the trib...there will be saints martyred in the trib, clearly since Paul speaks of those who will be alive at His Return will be caught up with Him in the air. that's a rapture of some sort right! :-P .


Quote:
Read heb. 11 it says some refused freedom and were also killed so to have a better resurection.



well i like that you brought this verse up...if i have a choice, i'll stay through the trib because i will have a better resurrection clearly and here's why:

from Rev 20

[b]1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.[/b]

this is at the return of Jesus and it continues:

[b]4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a F107 thousand years.[/b]

if your view holds true, then the ones who rule with Christ are Jews here and/or the Christians who missed the rapture...interestingly for those who come through the trib, this guarantee is made for them:

[b]5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.[/b]

these ones automatically rule with Jesus and are in no danger of being cast into the lake of fire...a small price to pay to sit and rule with Him...Also it is important to note that these people here have to be Christians, some of them died during the trib, others lived to see Christ return. that everyone who didn't take the mark of the beast is marked for death doesn't mean that these all died. yes antichrist is granted power to kill them all but that doesn't mean that he succeeds at it as is commonly taught. even if there is one person who is standing at the end of it all, God wouldn't consider that a waste and he would be raptured then, God isn't looking for quantity, He's concerned with quality...God spared 8 out of a world of millions...

Quote:
Post trib has Jesus rapturing almost nobody ,jumping on riderless horses ,missing the marriage supper and doing a u turn back to earth



bro David, have you forgotten what Paul said that all would be changed in the twinlking of an eye? that's quite a lot of people, some alive and some dead being changed in an instant, which to me is in time to be at the marriage feast and ride back to beat antichrist. do you think God can do that? let's say that the number which returns is a billion people...many of whom are dead, they all have to rise first, get dressed, get on the horses, get in marching order...all this happens in an instant, that to me is plenty of time to catch the marriage feast, change and get back all while Jesus is coming through the clouds.

so this which you said:
Quote:
Post trib has Jesus rapturing almost nobody ,jumping on riderless horses ,missing the marriage supper and doing a u turn back to earth



isn't necessarily true...

like i said bro, if what you believe is true, then we're all good, but if you are wrong...

then i want the best resurrection possible, if it means the trib...then it's the trib.
Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/9/18 19:44Profile
TimmyJoe
Member



Joined: 2007/6/19
Posts: 120
Panama City, FL

 Re: HALF AN HOUR IN HEAVEN...AND A BETTER RESURRECTION!

KEEP YOUR LAMPS FULL!

Remember they were ALL virgins, but only 5 were expecting the Lord.

-Timmyjoe

 2007/9/18 19:56Profile





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