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 Re:

Hi David - yes, it is an anti-pre-trib site. He debates with the head of Tim LaHayes Pre-Trib Org..

About your first question up there - Yes, we "meet Him in the "air" and the dead in Christ rise first and we do not precede them - but they precede us in the "resurrection" and we all meet "in the air" as HE is Coming in the clouds, just like He left.

He only comes back once, with the clouds and the angels and the Glory and like a theif in the night - but only like a thief in the night to those who aren't "awake and watching" and with sufficient oil in their lamps. You don't need oil lamps "at" - "the brightness of His appearing" - only to see your way through the darkness that precedes His Coming.

As far as the marriage supper - could you give me the Scriptures that teach you about "it".
Thank you David.

 2007/9/17 18:41
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

he reigns, rev 19, also the parable of 10 virgins. Also if you go to last trumphet" you will see tims attempt to explain it away.
you never addressed the white horses.

Thanks,David

 2007/9/17 19:03Profile
TimmyJoe
Member



Joined: 2007/6/19
Posts: 120
Panama City, FL

 Re:

The jews thought the messiah was coming to restore Israel and become king. When Jesus died they thought he couldn't be the messiah because he didn't do what the messiah was to do. They confused prophecies and didn't accept the true messiah. I believe that alot of folks do that with the rapture and second coming.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2Th. 2:7,8

Something or someone has to be taken out of the way so the wickedness can be revealed. My bet is the bride of Christ. Are you looking for Christ or Anti-Christ?

-with love, Timmyjoe

 2007/9/17 19:32Profile
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Quote:
The link "last trumpet" in my opinion is very disengenuous. It is actually the anti pre-trib website. 90% of the reading there is attacking the pre trib believers.
read the butcher job he does on the marriage supper of the lamb, Then ask yourself why does he do this? Just the marriage supper item alone blows a hole in his doctrine big enough to sail a ship through.



The Last Trumpet website hosted by Tim Warner is an excellent website with top quality scholarship. I strongly disagree with you David. Tim Warner has done his homework, and for someone who has studied the pre-trib post-trib debate for many years, I have never seen any such good scholarship come from the pre-tribulational camp that even compares. I'm sorry you are getting upset, but I challenge you to check the Scriptures to see if what you believe is Biblical, or if it something you have been taught and hold onto emotionally. I've seen this happen in hundreds of cases.

Amen to this thread and amen to He_reigns.


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2007/9/17 20:29Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Eli barnabas,You dont know me but you judge me to be upset and emotional.Tim warner has a anti pre trib website that attacks a segment of christianity that stands on solid scriptural ground.It is my utmost desire to be accurate and true to the truth as possible.
I could show him where he is wrong but guess what ? he is in too deep to listen.
people have Legitamate positions and the debate should be open.Too bad you have to resort to your tactics, I am sure we could learn from one another but when you call people names it destroys lively debate.
but then again i guess i can summize that my questions do put the post trib position on shaky ground.
again I would say Look at his {Tim warner} mishandling of scripture and ask yourself. What is going on here?
Thanks ,David

 2007/9/17 21:54Profile









 Re:

Brother David, I think you took offense where Eli meant none at all. He's never called anyone "names" and he was only encouraging you to be open to an exchange of the Scriptures.
David, we all must be open to examining ALL of the Scriptures from the O.T. to the new and not just a few here and there.
That is what I for one have done and others here.
How can you say you could win a debate with a man who has posted pages that you haven't read - such as the one posted on page one about the accurate "origin" of the pre-trib teaching ?
The Early Church and Early Church Fathers did not teach a pre-trib rapture.
Over 40 years of researching just this so-called Mystery and where it came from and yet, folks are too afraid to really look at the Biblical and Historical proofs.
Misunderstanding Eli has only closed off all communications on this thread that "O" started.
I don't think anyone truly read his post.
All doctrines must be backed up with every Scripture in the Bible that mentions that particular subject - in this case, the last days and His Coming.
You have been "taught" pre-trib, just as I had been and I believed it and taught it in my Ministry. But then I began to find the verses that contradict a pre-trib doctrine and that is when I focused on this doctrine from cover to cover of my Bible. I was trying to 'prove' pre-trib and instead found out that I had been taught a teaching compiled by men based upon a very few of the Scriptures that speak about the last days. I found that the verses I was taught, were taken out of context and most were not taken literally, but "meanings" were being placed on them - such as Rev. 4 - that they claim is the rapture.
If you are not open to comparing Scripture for Scripture, but just insist that you could debate Tim Warner - then, it is no use to even try to answer any further questions, because you've admitted that your mind is settled on this issue and you are not open to compare Scripture with Scripture.
Read Eli's post again, at the least, and see that he did not call you names and that if you knew him at all, you'd find he is one of the most polite posters on this Forum.
That's all I can say.
I'd just like to post to the topic of this thread now and not to anyone but to the topic.
________________________________________
Commentary on -

MATTHEW 24:29-35 J.C. Ryle

But immediately after the oppression of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. He will send out his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his elect ones from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

"Now from the fig tree learn this parable. When its branch has now become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that the summer is near. Even so you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Most certainly I tell you, this generation will not pass away, until all these things are accomplished. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

In this part of our Lord's prophecy, He describes His own second coming, to judge the world. This, at all events, seems the natural meaning of the passage. To take any lower view appears to be a violent straining of Scripture language. If the solemn words here used mean nothing more than the coming of the Roman armies to Jerusalem, we may explain away anything in the Bible. The event here described is one of far greater moment than the march of any earthly army. It is nothing less than the closing act of this dispensation, the second personal advent of Jesus Christ.

These verses teach us, in the first place, that when the Lord Jesus returns to this world, He shall come with peculiar glory and majesty. He shall come "in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Before His presence the very sun, moon, and stars shall be darkened, and "the powers of heaven shall be shaken."

The SECOND personal coming of Christ shall be as different as possible from the FIRST. He came the first time as a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. He was born in the manger of Bethlehem, in lowliness and humiliation. He took on him the form of a servant, and was despised and rejected of men. He was betrayed into the hands of wicked men, condemned by an unjust judgment, mocked, scourged, crowned with thorns, and at last crucified between two thieves. He shall come the second time as the King of all the earth, with all royal majesty. The princes and great men of this world shall themselves stand before His throne to receive an eternal sentence. Before him every mouth shall be stopped, and every knee bow, and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. May we all remember this. Whatever ungodly men may do now, there will be no scoffing, no jesting at Christ, no infidelity at the last day. The servants of Jesus may well wait patiently. Their master shall one day be acknowledged King of kings by all the world.

These verses teach us, in the second place, that when Christ returns to this world, He will first take care of His believing people. He shall "send his angels," and "gather together his elect."
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=3593

 2007/9/18 3:52
hisremnant
Member



Joined: 2006/2/2
Posts: 55
North Central Indiana

 Re:

Praise Jesus!! Lion of Judah!!

i think i will throw in my 2 cents.

In the Bible i never see God removing people from trials and tribulations. When we look at historical Christianity we never see that either.

Daniel, Meschak, Abednego, Schadrak, Mordecai, David, Paul, Peter, John, Anabaptists, puritans the list could go on and on.

My question to all those believing in a pre-trib Catching Away. What makes you so special????

And i will say this i am convicted that it is not a minor deception. i fear that many are expecting to avoid hardship etc. and will not be prepared for the fury of Satan. This will be their undoing. Yes-- Keep your lamps full and serve God with all the strength HE gives you. Prepare your hearts to cleave unto HIM so that you may endure to the end.

i will finish by saying that if there is going to be a pre-trib removal of the church. It better be coming REAL SOON.

Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

 2007/9/18 8:03Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

he reigns, I should not have taken the bait . but if I for example called you emotional and upset at your last post you wouldask yourself {as i did} why is he doing this? It is a rabbit trail. It leads nowhere .
But what it does do is avoids answering my question.
I believe this is where the debate should be kept.
I would gladly [join ranks]with the post tribbers if my questions could be answered.
Iwould be happy to answer any questions about what i believe.
Is this a forum or a club of Like minded christians.
You like eli dont know me and yet you say I have been taught pre- trib.
I got saved in 1977 and I attended a church that TAUGHT A millinialism.I believe you call it something else. I think i was the only one in the church that bellieved diff. from them. I stuck my nose in the word and began to seek GOD for answers.
I dont need a little girls dream Mr lahye Mr warner or ANY man to tell me what i need to believe.I WILL listen to them and even ponder what they say. AND I WILL change or adjust my position GLADLY.
I personally cant believe that a group of christiaans so readily jumps on a band wagon that trumpets error based on accusations of dreams and church history to try and validate their position.
Look, I dont need to discredit the post tribbers to fortify my position.
To me post trib is a impossibility But i welcome anyone [without using Tactics].... Justt the word. to open discussion.
THanks,David

 2007/9/18 11:57Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

hisremnant, Jesus said pray that you would be counted worthy to escape the things that are about to come upon the earth.
You left out noah.The ark represents heaven.
It looks like Lesus had an escapist mentality.
If you have trouble believing some are more special than others consider those that dont get any crowns to cast to the LORD.
YES HIS BRIDE IS SPECIAL.
Ask yourself a question.... If Jesus has a bride and he is to be united with his bride. .... Would not this possibly be the next [most unprecidented] event?
If it is, maybe the focus [from heavens point of view] is not the tribulation period but JESUS AND HIS BRIDE.
I am a man but i am also the bride of CHRIST.
The 5 foolish virgins were not allowed in.
The 5 foolish were definately NOT saying COME LORD JESUS.
Now doesnt it seem foolish to you to not look for the bridegrooms comming?
Thanks, David

 2007/9/18 12:21Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4501


 Re:

Hi HE_Reigns...

Quote:
[color=000099]
HE_Reigns wrote:
Sorry to have upset you brother, but I haven't much else to say except that after reading the ECF, the "origin" of the belief and every verse in the Bible on the last days - yes, it is a lie.
And I feel no harm done to myself whatsoever if others would consider what we believe to be a lie. I don't take offense or take it personal when anything I believe is called a lie. No, not at all Sir.

The Lord wrote enough about the last days for us to 'know' and we're told 'to know'.
Sorry if we disagree, but yes I am adamant on this, because unless one is holding "the testimony of Jesus which is the spirit of prophecy" - they're going to have a very rough time discerning the times they are living in and I would be willing to wager a major bet - that if Keith Green should not have been killed in that plane crash, that he'd have come right out and taught eschatology differently by now.

I've known more men to change their view just within this last year alone, then I'd seen in over 40 years in the Church and since I've dug into this - I 'was' pre-trib many years ago.
Something's happening out there - to cause this polar shift in men's eschatology.

Again, sorry that you are upset.
I'll leave this one link to explain a little more, but you are still free to believe as you choose.
http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/timeline/index.html

I cannot apologize for calling it a lie but I can say, that I feel badly that you are so upset.
Eschatology is not "irrelevant". Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude and John and our O.T. Prophets certainly didn't think so in the slightest. Very far from it.

A least you ended it with a :-).[/color]

[color=CC0000]ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Do you really feel the need to call the belief and preaching of a pre-trib "rapture" a "lie?" You certainly don't have to agree with the notion of a "pre-trib rapture." But do you feel so spiritually pretentious as to disrespect the view held by many others by using such a strong word? How would you feel if they called your belief in a post-trib "rapture" a "lie?"

I am both amazed and perplexed by this sort of nonsense! We are not talking about a doctrinal view that is universally clear from the Scriptures. Even the most ardent pre-trib or post-trib believers would have to admit that it takes some sort of honest and scholarly assumption to decide upon a belief (either way) about the "rapture." These sort of beliefs about prophecy are certainly not "foundational" in the sense that they are not necessary to enter the Kingdom of God. Yet we sometimes feel so inclined to label believers or preachers who profess such a belief (either way) as "heretics," "infidels" or, in this case, LIARS.

When I am asked what I believe about something as irrelevant (in terms of eternal salvation) as the timing of the "rapture," I usually confess that I don't know what to believe. I am somewhat persuaded that a "rapture" might take place BEFORE the time of great tribulation. I am also persuaded that a "rapture" might simply be our transformation AFTER the time of tribulation (at the Lord's return). Do we honestly believe (as some have insisted in the past) that true believers with a relationship with the Lord will be lost because they are waiting on a pre-trib rapture (or vice versa)? I thought that our relationship with the Lord was made of "sterner stuff" than that.

Regardless, I am familiar with both sides of this doctrinal argument. I tend to hold to Keith Green's "pray for pre-trib but prepare for post-trib" viewpoint. In fact, all that I am CERTAIN of is that the Lord is coming. He will one day return to this Earth and gather His people unto Himself. Whether or not that means that Christ will appear in the clouds and gather us BEFORE or AFTER the tribulation is of no matter. What matters is that we remain intimately dedicated to Him at all times.

Of course, I don't believe that we should be "preaching" about the timing of the "rapture" (pre or post) unless we are quick to mention the alternate views of the Church -- including the Scriptural rationale for those beliefs. But we should ALWAYS be extremely careful when using the "L" words (lie, lies, lying, liar, etc...) in regards to sincere and inconsequential matters of doctrine.[/color]

I am not "offended" by your post. Rather, I felt frustrated by your choice of wording. The problem with your post was not that you [i]believe[/i] that the teaching of a "pre-trib rapture" is a [i]lie[/i]." The problem that I see is that you refrained from distinguishing your belief (or assumption) from truth. You have left no room for error. It seems that you feel 100% certain of something that, with our limited eschatology, cannot be completely determined by Scripture.

Do you see the problem with this? You have willfully criticized a sincere doctrinal belief that is accepted by many believers around the globe. You not only described the belief as "incorrect," but you have labeled it a "[u]LIE[/u]." This makes the people that preach it "LIARS," and those who believe it "FOOLS."

Why is such a statement wrong? This goes far beyond the limited scope of the Scriptural or historical "defense" that you give for a "post-trib" rapture (or others give for a "pre-trib" rapture). The problem is that you are using the same bipolar argument that serves to seperate the Body of Christ. You seem to feel so incredibly secure about your belief that you feel the liberty to slander all other doctrinal views pertaining to this issue.

Why is such bipolar rhetoric wrong? Because you leave no room for personal error. You have stated that you come from a "pre-trib" background. How certain were you about your "pre-trib" beliefs? Would you have felt the liberty to publicly state that post-trib Christians were "[i]believing a lie[/i]?" Yet that is what you have done now that you have "seen the light" about the timing of the rapture.

It seems to me that "no man knows the day or the hour" -- including the Son of God (Matthew 24:36). If the "rapture" were to take place only after the beginning of the time of great tribulation (usually agreed upon as either 3 1/2 or 7 years -- by both pre and post believers alike), then don't you think that Jesus might have a good idea when He will return? In fact, it seems like ALL believers would be expecting Christ's return following the commencement of the time of tribulation (instead of "[i]an hour when we thinketh not[/i]"). How about the Scripture in Revelation, where the Lord stated that He would "[i]keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth[/i]" (Revelation 3:10). Your historical account states that the idea of a "pre-trib" rapture comes from a "vision" (or dream) of a young girl in 1826 (or 1830). Yet we have accounts of Ephraem the Syrian, an early Church deacon, spoke about a "pre-trib" rapture in his work [i]Hymns Against Heresies[/i] (C. 373 A.D.). He stated, "[i]For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins[/i]."

"Post-trib" believers usually attribute the "last trumpet" of Revelation 11 with the trumpet mentioned by Paul in I Corinthians 15. Yet we have received no indication that these are the same trumpets or trumpet sounds. It is also interesting to note that I Corinthians was written many years before John's revelation on the Isle of Patmos. Some "post-trib" believers attribute their belief to the "Day of the Lord" argument (that the "thief in the night" rapture will occur on that great and dreadful day of the Lord (Armaggedon). Yet Peter wrote about the Day of the Lord in which the Heavens and the Earth will be destroyed, which is almost universally accepted as following the 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth (II Peter 3:10-13). Is it possible that there is more than one "day of the Lord?" Or is it possible that the "day of the Lord" is longer than a single Earth day? Remember that Paul, in the same context that he preached about the "day of the Lord" also told us that "[i]God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ[/i]" (I Thessalonians 5:1-9).

Why am I saying this? You are preaching something as FACT that, in my opinion, is not 100% completely clear from Scripture. However, you may in fact be correct. The rapture might take place AFTER the time of tribulation. But is there ANY DOUBT whatsoever that the rapture could possibly take place BEFORE the tribulation? If there is any doubt whatsoever, then you have done a disservice by labeling a belief in the pre-trib rapture a "LIE."

Currently, I am somewhat persuaded that the rapture MIGHT take place BEFORE the tribulation (which will take place either 3 1/2 or 7 years), at which point the Lord will return to the Earth, gathering those who died and remain during the tribulation to meet Him as He descends (at Megiddo). Following this, there will be a 1000 year time of peace (as believers reign with Christ over those who survived on the Earth). But regardless of what I believe, or whether or not I am right or wrong, I am quick to point out that this is merely my own persuasion and that I am well aware of possible flaws in such a belief. I should NEVER proclaim as FACT what is merely my own persuasion. In my opinion, the teaching of the rapture can only be taught from a perspective of deduction, assumption or persuasion. To teach otherwise would render one in danger of proclaiming something to be TRUTH that might not be, or to proclaim something as a LIE that might not be. Can we ever feel so secure about something that isn't completely clear from Scripture?

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2007/9/18 13:06Profile





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