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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Quote:
there can be no justification in a legal sense


Then is what sense is there justification?

By perfect, and uninterrupted obedience to law.
Maybe I don't get your question, I answered this in my first post.

Quote:
Nile wrote:
I believe that you have many of the right conclusions!
In fact, I would go so far as to say that you probably believe in a Governmental Atonement without realizing it - you just believe that there are other aspects of the atonement as well.
I do not believe that these "other aspects" are necessary or Biblical, but that a Governmental Atonement alone is the sum of everything necessary, the satisfaction of everything required, and the complete fulfillment of every Biblical description of the Atonement.

I don't know what a "Governmental Atonement" is.

What specific "other aspects" are not necessary?

Quote:
Nile wrote:
A good argument brother! Consider though, that God's forgiveness of David saved him from the legal penalty...Hell.

How did God forgive David with out letting the law go unsatisfied?

Quote:
Nile wrote:
The death of his child was a reminder of his sin and a chastisement, but was in no ways "justly required" by his crime. Do you see what I mean?David prayed that God would not let the child die. If the child's death was "justly required" of David's crime, then would David have been asking that God do something unjust? Do you see how, therefore, the child's death is not pertaining to a satisfaction of the law?

I agree tha the death of davids child was not "justly required", because the child did not do the crime. It is the soul that sins that shall die(Eze 18:20)

Quote:
Nile wrote:
I believe it is possible to set aside the law and forgive without requiring any payment.

If you believe this, you do not understand justice, let alone "divine justice"

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Go back to my previous example.
Am I being unjust in scenario A, by not requiring payment?
Is it wrong of me to "forgive" the man like this?

We christians can only foregive because Jesus forgave us, that is the only basis that we can forgive others.
[b]Mat 18:35[/b] [color=990000]So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if you from your hearts forgive not everyone his brother their trespasses.[/color]

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Are you saying that for every wrong done to us, we should demand payment of some sort be exacted

No, we forgive knowing that those who do not repent for the sins and/or debts against us will have their just dessert in the end, that is how we are able to forgive.
[b]Rom 12:19[/b] [color=990000]Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says the Lord.[/color]

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Does this mean that in our courts, there should never be any pardons or mercies given ever?

The only way that there should be any pardons is because the law gives that authority to those who can pardon.
The law says that the president can pardon:
Quote:
Constitutional Authority for Presidential Pardons
The presidential power to pardon is granted under Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution.

"The President ... shall have power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in cases of impeachment."

Pardons are not just given away at whim by just any judiciary; not just any judge can say at the bench, "I forgive you" or "the court forgives you"
The judge himself needs to have othority from the law to forgive.

Quote:
Nile wrote:
I would very much like to know how you answer these questions, as I think it's critical to this discussion.

I hope these are suficiant.
Forgiveness is always costly. there is always a price with forgiveness.
The King in Mat 18:22-34 who forgave his servant was paying the debt himself by the lose of the monies owed to him.
Just as it is with our sin, GOD the Father is paying the debt himself by the price of His Son.

Quote:
Nile wrote:
but His suffering was not equal to the suffering of billions in Hell for eternity...it did not have to be equal to satisfy justice.

I agree, some might figure that Christ would need to have suffered in the amount to which was due for each and every person to satisfy justice.

This is to suppose that Jesus needed to suffer an eternal punishment multiplied in intensity, and duration, by the whole number of the the human race.
However, the penalty of sin is spiritual death, [b]not[/b] "to suffer an eternal punishment".

The only reason That the damned suffer an eternal punishment is because they die physicaly without Eternal Life.
To explain further:
If Eternal Life after physical death is in the presence with God, then to die physicaly without Eternal Life is eternal punishment outside the presence of God.

If one does not stay in the presence of Christ, there is no other place to be, but in outer darkness where there is gnashing of teeth.

 2007/9/16 20:05Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
By perfect, and uninterrupted obedience to law.
Maybe I don't get your question, I answered this in my first post.


My point is, this is the [u]only[/u] type justification that the law recognizes. Any other type of justification is not recognized by the law.
Since the only justification that the law is capable of has been made impossible, another method of justification must be sought.
We agree so far, I'm sure.

Here is where I'm going with this:
[b]Penal Substitution claims that ultimately, justification comes from the law.[/b]

I do not believe this is correct. Our justification comes by the grace of God, [u]not[/u] by the law.
I will explain more, but I want to see if you grasp what I'm saying first.

Quote:
What specific "other aspects" are not necessary?


Boiled down, these are the "other aspects":

1. Jesus paid the debt we owed. That is, Jesus suffered the wrath of God intended for us.
-I see this no where in the Bible.

2. Jesus suffered for us by suffering [/i]*as* us[/i].
-Again, I see this no where in the Bible. I would stop, as the Bible does, at Jesus suffered simply *for* us.

Quote:
If you believe this, you do not understand justice, let alone "divine justice"


Or perhaps you do not understand forgiveness. :-)
I was mightily liberated and overjoyed when I first understood [i]true[/i] forgiveness.

Quote:
No, we forgive knowing that those who do not repent for the sins and/or debts against us will have their just dessert in the end, that is how we are able to forgive.


This is the view I held for a long time...I now believe it is wrong.

Is that the only way you can bring yourself to forgive someone, if you remind yourself that they'll be punished if they don't repent? I don't believe it for an instant. I know without a doubt that you, I, and everyone is able to genuinely forgive an offense against us [u]and not have concern for retribution[/u]. That is not to say that retribution will not be dealt or that retribution is not good. I am saying that forgiveness need not be based on that - it should be based on love.

Quote:
The only way that there should be any pardons is because the law gives that authority to those who can pardon.


What would you say of God? Can He pardon, as in our court systems? Can He forgive someone and not require that any punishment be made?
If no, Why not?
What obstacles stand in the way?

Here is a very pointed that question that I think strikes the heart of the issue.

[b]What is accomplished by punishing a sinner for his sin?[/b]

If it can be shown that Christ's death accomplishes everything that would be accomplished if the sinner was punished as he deserved, then Christ death is a sufficient reason to extend pardon to the sinner (the sinner of God's choice - that is, the repentant one), for nothing more can be accomplished by punishing the sinner.

Quote:
I hope these are suficiant.


Yep, thanks. I feel like we're actually discussing things as opposed to going around in circles :-)

Quote:
I agree, some might figure that Christ would need to have suffered in the amount to which was due for each and every person to satisfy justice.

This is to suppose that Jesus needed to suffer an eternal punishment multiplied in intensity, and duration, by the whole number of the the human race.
However, the penalty of sin is spiritual death, not "to suffer an eternal punishment".


Aha, a good point. However, what do you mean by "spiritual death"?
Are you suggesting that Christ died such a spiritual death?

Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/9/16 21:51Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Quote:
By perfect, and uninterrupted obedience to law.
Maybe I don't get your question, I answered this in my first post.

My point is, this is the [u]only[/u] type justification that the law recognizes. Any other type of justification is not recognized by the law.
Since the only justification that the law is capable of has been made impossible, another method of justification must be sought.
We agree so far, I'm sure.

Here is where I'm going with this:
[b]Penal Substitution claims that ultimately, justification comes from the law.[/b]

I do not believe this is correct. Our justification comes by the grace of God, [u]not[/u] by the law.
I will explain more, but I want to see if you grasp what I'm saying first.


I agree to this but we must know what the grace of God is.
Grace is the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God, kindness of God.
Grace:
Strongs Greek #5485 χάρις - charis is another word for gift.

Now we must know how a fallen man can find grace with a Holy and Just God.
God must punish sin, He can not have a relaitionship with a sinner.
How, then, can God show favore to an object of His wrath who spit in His face, who broke relaition with Him?
God didn't break our relaition with Him, we did by sinning.
There must be a way to make the relationship posible between God & man, that is the Atonement.

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Quote:
What specific "other aspects" are not necessary?

Boiled down, these are the "other aspects":

1. Jesus paid the debt we owed. That is, Jesus suffered the wrath of God intended for us.
-I see this no where in the Bible.

2. Jesus suffered for us by suffering [/i]*as* us[/i].
-Again, I see this no where in the Bible. I would stop, as the Bible does, at Jesus suffered simply *for* us.


[b]1.[/b] As for debt:
[b]Mat 20:28[/b] [color=990000]Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to [b]give his life a ransom for many.[/b][/color]
A ransom is the price paid of that wich is demanded.
If Jesus did not need to pay the debt we owed, then what is this vers about?
[b]2.[/b] this might just be a matter of symantics, but I will give this to you.

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Quote:
If you believe this, you do not understand justice, let alone "divine justice"

Or perhaps you do not understand forgiveness.
I was mightily liberated and overjoyed when I first understood true forgiveness.

I think I descirbed my view of forgiveness quite well, could you disagreee on any of it?

Please explain "true forgiveness" if it is not as I have.

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Quote:
This is the view I held for a long time...I now believe it is wrong.

This is the view I held for a long time...I now believe it is wrong.

Is that the only way you can bring yourself to forgive someone, if you remind yourself that they'll be punished if they don't repent? I don't believe it for an instant. I know without a doubt that you, I, and everyone is able to genuinely forgive an offense against us and not have concern for retribution. That is not to say that retribution will not be dealt or that retribution is not good. I am saying that forgiveness need not be based on that - it should be based on love.

Yes, Love, How do we love anybody without knowing that Christ was first loving us?
Likewise, with forgiveness, How doe we Forgive without knoing that Christ, first forgave us.

Mankind is created with a sence of justice. We know that crimes can not be swept under the carpet through love with no saticfaction of the law that God created in us.
A man murders your wife:
How can you [b]love[/b] him without reminding yourself that you were first forviven and that you could have done the same accept for the grace of God?

How can you [b]forgive[/b] him without reminding yourself the will be punished if he don't repent in the end?

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Quote:
The only way that there should be any pardons is because the law gives that authority to those who can pardon, as in our court systems?

What would you say of God? Can He pardon,

Only on the bases of His divine law, just as our law gives authority to those who can pardon.

Quote:
Nile wrote:
He forgive someone and not require that any punishment be made?
If no, Why not?
What obstacles stand in the way?

No.
Because He is %100 just & %100 loving.
If God forgave and not require that any punishment be made, He would not be just; that would devalue HIS Righteousness and Holyness.

Say that the court forgave that man who murdered your wife and now he is back on the streets.
You, the victim, have been devalued as a citizen and in many more ways.

Quote:
Nile wrote:
What is accomplished by punishing a sinner for his sin?

If it can be shown that Christ's death accomplishes everything that would be accomplished if the sinner was punished as he deserved, then Christ death is a sufficient reason to extend pardon to the sinner (the sinner of God's choice - that is, the repentant one), for nothing more can be accomplished by punishing the sinner.

Yep.

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Aha, a good point. However, what do you mean by "spiritual death"?
Are you suggesting that Christ died such a spiritual death?

Death in the Bible is always pictured as a separation between two things.
Physical death, spirit for body - [b]Eccl 12:7[/b] [color=990000]then shall [b]the dust return to the earth[/b] as it was: and [b]the spirit shall return unto God[/b] who gave it.[/color]
[b]James 2:26[/b] [color=990000]as [b]the body without the spirit is dead[/b], so faith without works is dead also.[/color]
Spiritual death, God from man - [b]Isa 59:1-2[/b] [color=990000]But [b]your iniquities have separated you between and your God[/b], and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.[/color]

Jesus died physically & spiritually on the cross.
Jesus died spiritually when He cried, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, [b]My God[/b], my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
He was separated from God which is spiritual death.
However, He dain Spiritual life again when HE said, " [b]Father[/b], into your hands I commend my spirit(Luke 23:46)
Jesus died physically when He cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Mat 27:50, Luk 23:46, John 19:30.

 2007/9/17 19:21Profile
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Here is an interesting thought to ponder...

Both forgiveness and justice can happen without the nullifaction of one or the other. Consider, a criminal is put in jail for murder, but the family of the victim forgives him. This does not mean he now doesn't have to go to jail... he goes to jail and justice is served, but at the same time he is forgiven. So both aren't mutually exclusive.

I say this because there are some who say if God forgives us that means there is therefore no justice served, for, they reason, that if justice is served how can that be forgiveness? I say that it can be both and it doesn't have to be one or the other.

Jesus Christ has received the punishment that our sins owed; [i]"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."[/i] (Isaiah 53:5-6) This fact does not nullify the free grace of God in forgiving us of our sins. It was a necessity of the law and the curse which required blood, and the law has now been satisfied, and God can now forgive us. It is both.

Just something to consider in this discussion.


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2007/9/17 20:50Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Eli_Barnabas wrote:
Here is an interesting thought to ponder...

Both forgiveness and justice can happen without the nullifaction of one or the other. Consider, a criminal is put in jail for murder, but the family of the victim forgives him. This does not mean he now doesn't have to go to jail... he goes to jail and justice is served, but at the same time he is forgiven. So both aren't mutually exclusive.

Consider, a criminal is put in jail for murder, but the family of the victim forgives him.
However, they will not let the courts let him loose to ravage the city and muder more people.

There are difernt ways to forgive, the family of the victim forgave him personaly but not judicialy.
We can not forgive judicialy but we may forgive personaly without payment, in any way, of the crime; The courts van not forgive personaly, but can only forgive judicialy according to the law.

God is both a peronal God and Law giver/Judge, God forgives personaly but judicialy, He demands the requirements of the law to be saticfied.

 2007/9/17 22:21Profile
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Yes, that is what I am saying.


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2007/9/17 23:22Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Our posts are getting quite long, aren't they? :-P
This will probably take more than one post to cover.

Quote:
Now we must know how a fallen man can find grace with a Holy and Just God.
God must punish sin, He can not have a relaitionship with a sinner.
How, then, can God show favore to an object of His wrath who spit in His face, who broke relaition with Him?
God didn't break our relaition with Him, we did by sinning.There must be a way to make the relationship posible between God & man, that is the Atonement.


I agree! We differ merely on [b]why[/b] this necessary and [b]how[/b] it is accomplished.

Quote:
1. As for debt:
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
A ransom is the price paid of that wich is demanded.
If Jesus did not need to pay the debt we owed, then what is this vers about?


He ransomed us, yes. He paid what was needed to be paid, yes. The catch is, what He paid [i]was not our debt[/i]. There is no reason why it needs to be, and in fact there is no way it could be! The only person who can pay my debt is me, for the law explicitly says that the soul who sins must die. Not someone must die. The soul who sins must die. There is nothing given in the Law to allow someone to die for someone else. Not that I know of.

Quote:
2. this might just be a matter of symantics, but I will give this to you.


I don't think it's semantics. Consider what implications I draw from this statement that are contrary to popular teaching:
If Christ doesn't suffer [i]as[/i] us, then we do not stand before God [i]as[/i] Christ. If our sin did not cause God to see us on the cross when Christ died, then Christ's righteousness does not cause God to see Christ when He looks at us. More on this later depending on how you see it.

Quote:
Please explain "true forgiveness" if it is not as I have.


After thinking about it, when I said "true forgiveness" I was actually meaning mercy (which includes forgiveness). I think the examples you gave fall apart if you substitute "mercy" for forgiveness.

Quote:
Yes, Love, How do we love anybody without knowing that Christ was first loving us?
Likewise, with forgiveness, How doe we Forgive without knoing that Christ, first forgave us.


I concede here. "We love for Christ first loved us."

Quote:
How can you forgive him without reminding yourself the will be punished if he don't repent in the end?


Here is an important point that I've been assuming but haven't stated:
Forgiveness and mercy should [b]only[/b] be extended given the following:
The offender is genuinely repentant.
It is deemed wise by all to extend mercy.
Justice is not sacrificed by extending mercy.

If those three are satisified, then I could forgive the man and not demand his punishment.
So your question is somewhat amiss: we should not forgive unless the person has actually repented. This does not mean to hold a grudge or to be angry. But Jesus says, "If your brother repents, forgive him." Also, I never see God forgiving someone before they repent.

Quote:
No.
Because He is %100 just & %100 loving.
If God forgave and not require that any punishment be made, He would not be just; that would devalue HIS Righteousness and Holyness.


But WHY! Dig down deep and ask: WHY would it devalue His Righteousness and Holiness?
(I agree with you, it does! But to understand why is a critical thing to understanding the Atonement.)

Quote:
Say that the court forgave that man who murdered your wife and now he is back on the streets.
You, the victim, have been devalued as a citizen and in many more ways.


You're starting to see it Logic! You're getting at the reasons [b]why[/b] punishment is necessary.
[b]1. The criminal is back on the streets with no guarantee that he will not do more harm.
2. The crime has not been shown to be heinous.
3. Others are not discouraged for committing the same crime.[/b]

Now here is what I say: [i]All these things have been accomplished with Christ's death, thus allowing God to extend mercy and forgiveness all who will repent.[/i]

All of these are accomplished with Christ's atoning sacrifice:

[b]1. The only ones God will let into His Kingdom are those who have repented and proved here on Earth that they will not be a menace to others in Heaven. That they will not be a menace is sure, because their hearts have been captured by God's love, as demonstrated in the cross.
2. Oh the evilness of sin! That only the death of God Incarnate could remove the stain! How much a greater testament of the evilness of sin than the death of billions of worthless sinners! No one in this age or any age to come should ever have any reason to doubt God's hatred of sin, as demonstrated in the cross.
3. The death of an innocent man does far more to motivate men than the death of innumerable wicked men. This is an undeniable fact proven throughout history. How much more does a martyr inspire passion and devotion than a filthy criminal punished for his crime?[/b]

Are there any more things that need to be satisfied before a sinner can be justly pardoned? (I might have forgotten something, so this is an honest and rhetorical question.)

Quote:
Jesus died physically & spiritually on the cross.
Jesus died spiritually when He cried, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
He was separated from God which is spiritual death.


What makes you say Jesus was separated from God?
I will post more later on what death I think Christ died.

Joyfully praising God,
Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/9/18 10:59Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
What makes you say Jesus was separated from God?
I will post more later on what death I think Christ died.



Jesus died a death that He was in no ways deserving of.
He was despised, shamed, and mocked.
He was killed in a most painful death, the same death dealt to murderers and thieves.
Indeed, He was put death between two sinners.
Nothing was said of His righteousness.

He was indeed forsaken by God.

...

Now what is this about Him being separated from God? Jesus was in perfect communion with God even while hanging on the cross.

More later,
Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/9/18 12:15Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Quote:
1. As for debt:
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
A ransom is the price paid of that wich is demanded.
If Jesus did not need to pay the debt we owed, then what is this vers about?


He ransomed us, yes. He paid what was needed to be paid, yes. The catch is, what He paid [i]was not our debt[/i].

What debt or whoes, then?


Quote:
Nile wrote:
There is no reason why it needs to be, and in fact there is no way it could be! The only person who can pay my debt is me, for the law explicitly says that the soul who sins must die. Not someone must die. The soul who sins must die. There is nothing given in the Law to allow someone to die for someone else. Not that I know of.

Yes, you were already paying the debt by dieing spiritualy before your salvation, you were separated from the life of God.
However, the problem is, how to regain that relaishonship to be unseparated from God.
How do we become spiritualy alive again?
We need spiritual reserection.
The debt of our sin needs paid for us to live spiritualy again.

Quote:
Nile wrote:
I don't think it's semantics. Consider what implications I draw from this statement that are contrary to popular teaching:

Okay, HE died for us :-). He paid the debt of our transgressions, trespasses, iniquities for us.
Quote:
Nile wrote:
1. The only ones God will let into His Kingdom are those who have repented and proved here on Earth that they will not be a menace to others in Heaven. That they will not be a menace is sure, because their hearts have been captured by God's love, as demonstrated in the cross.

In other words, The only ones God will let into His Kingdom are those who have proved faithful.
Quote:
Nile wrote:
3. The death of an innocent man does far more to motivate men than the death of innumerable wicked men. This is an undeniable fact proven throughout history. How much more does a martyr inspire passion and devotion than a filthy criminal punished for his crime?

Jesus' death was more that a "motivation" and an "inspiration"
Quote:
Nile wrote:
Are there any more things that need to be satisfied before a sinner can be justly pardoned?

I think that you are implying that only a physical death by a completly inocent man was needed for God to have mecy to forgive.

The fact is, that a physical [b]and spiritual[/b] death by a completly inocent [b]eternal[/b] man was needed to pay for all mankind.

A completly inocent, created, finite man can only pay for one man and one of that man's many sins, furthuremore, that would leave the inocent, created, finite man who payed the debt, dead with no reserection.

Furthermore, if Jesus death was a ransom that was paid, then whoes debt was paid, if it wasn't ours?
Yes, we were paying the debt of spiritual death before salvation, however, that debt is infinite. We can never be dead spiritualy long enough to be completly paid off.

Quote:
What makes you say Jesus was separated from God?

Notice what Jesus said, ""Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? Which is, being interpreted, [b]My God, my God[/b], why hast [b]thou forsaken me[/b]?"
Sinners and those who are already separated from His Father call Him God. Jesus never called His Father God accept for this time because He was [b]counted with the transgressors[/b](Isa 53:12)
Isa 53:11 says he shall [b]bear their iniquities...[/b]

Therefore, [b]Isa 59:1-2[/b] [color=990000]But your iniquities have separated you between and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear[/color]
In other words, your I forsake you because of your iniquities.
What is God hiding His face from us mean?

Furhtermore, how would Jesus not experiance spiritual death if the wages of sin is spiritual death?

 2007/9/18 14:35Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Nile wrote:
Quote:
What makes you say Jesus was separated from God?
I will post more later on what death I think Christ died.

Jesus died a death that He was in no ways deserving of.
He was despised, shamed, and mocked.
He was killed in a most painful death, the same death dealt to murderers and thieves.
Indeed, He was put death between two sinners.
Nothing was said of His righteousness.
He was indeed forsaken by God.
...
Now what is this about Him being separated from God? Jesus was in perfect communion with God even while hanging on the cross.

I am greatly enjoying this conversation with you. I am impressed with you, a 19 yaer old and your knowledg.

I don't think physical death is the penalty for sin.
The reason for my statment is that animals and plants die, but they do not sin.
Furthermore, christians still die physicaly.
If physical death was the penalty for sin, then forgiven christians still pay the penalty of that which they were forgiven of, not to mention the plants and animals paying a price for what they never commit.

 2007/9/18 14:46Profile





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